Quebec

Yes, intentional and appropriate.
(how much is the cnd dollar now... to lazy to check myself)

Frankly, the Canadian dollar isn't worth all that much more today. According to today's paper, it was worth about $.68US ($.67 and change).

I'd like to echo what others have said: how are Quebeckers not free? I feel perfectly free here, and I come from that bastion of freedom, the US! I don't see why, since I'm English-speaking I should dislike the French or vice versa. My husband is French, BTW; he did his genealogy back to the first colonists here and he's 99.9% French. Should I hate him because of this? That's plain ridiculous! I live in a mainly French-spaeking area, and I'm very comfortable with my neighbours. They don't treat me badly because I have an English accent. Why should they? (BTW most people assume I'm English Canadian when they first meet me...)

I also look at the two points of view on Canada expressed by Niffawan and IP on one hand and by Shanamir on the other, and I realize the two solitudes really do exist. Maybe if we just talked to each other more in a rational manner, just as human beings, we'd see that neither side is as monsterous as the politicians like to make out. How will we ever find a compromise if individuals can't talk?

BTW, the PQ Prime Minister of Quebec, Lucien Bouchard, also has an American wife.

Is your husband called Lucien by any chance, Eruve?! Hehe... just kidding

... I'll have to start doing my homework... most of my old argumnents dates since I haven't argued on this subject for a long while.

One thing is sure:
We ARE different.
-We do not share common ancesters, that brings the two others point
-We do not speak the same language,
-We do not have the same values (just think of the conscription as said earlier... anglo-canadians where willing to go fight for the queen... we were FAR from willing

We are only a fourth of the total population. Just think of when you were young. Did you have a brother that was your parents favortie? That's how we feel (Here "we" represent around 50% of Quebec's population)
Now, if you were ten around a table. 1 guy speak a language you almost can't understand and sometimes act in ways you don't understand at all. You are very different on many points, when you say black, he says white, when you sleep he makes noise... etc. The other nine are easily understood by you and you share more with them. Now you have 100$ to share between the tens... hum how much will go to the guy nobody understand and that act in a completely different manner and misunderstood ways? Not much unless you're not honest with yourself.

Another thing is that MUCH money is lost with two stage of governement. Two guys doing the same job. On one's paycheck "Governement of Canada" 's written on the other's one "Gouvernement du Québec". I don't know much about the governement in that case but just enough to see that lots of money could be used elsewhere.

Another point is that we don't want the same things as other canadians. When you want better health care, we want more money invested in education... etc.

You can't give enough freedom until you completely dissolve the federal. And then what's left of the country?? Ten states. Nothing more.

And neglecting Quebec's needs for too long could someday result in a civil war... who knows. We should settle that while we still talk to each others. When the guns show, it would be too late.

Just remember, nine beavers around a frog telling her that she is a beaver like them won't make her anymore beaver.

"Je suis un Québecois"

Shan

Well, we do have two children........ But they're girls, not boys. My name is Anne, not Audrey; and my husband is a federalist! No, I'm definitely not married to Lucien Bouchard, LOL!

"I do think that Quebec and all other provinces should have more indepedance, and have an overall economic alliance where there could be less whinning"

Dang straight.

"I don't think that demanding that a store have a french-only or french-predominating front-store advertising should be considered at all as censorship."

I'm sorry, I was a bit vague on this point.

What it is is unlawful restriction of freedom of expression (not as cherished by me as freedom of speech).

The government has no right to choose what people and private groups say, OR IN WHAT LANGUAGE THEY SAY IT IN.

What will we allow next? The government could force us all to voice any dissent in Esperanto or something...

I can understand mandatory labelling in situations when there's a health concern - as in, "Beware of Dog" or "Caution: Corrosive"... but aside from that, the only thing that should force private citizens and groups to be bilingual is market pressure. Store doesn't do French ads? Don't shop there. The restaurant doesn't have French menus? Don't eat there.

"We do not share common ancesters"

Actually, as far as I know, we do. Aside from Adam and Eve... The Normans (French) did take over Britain to some extent, to my knowledge... William the Conqueror ring any bells?

"We do not speak the same language"

Speak for yourself. I speak French and English (Which are closely related - same character set, same dependencies on Latin, etc., etc.).

"We do not have the same values"

Perhaps not. If you mean Catholic vs. Protestant, then there's a bit of a valid point there... the two groups are not as far apart as some claim, though.

"anglo-canadians where willing to go fight for the queen... we were FAR from willing"

So there wasn't Quebeçois support for defending France's sovreignty? That was the Western front, after all...

"how much will go to the guy nobody understand and that act in a completely different manner and misunderstood ways? Not much unless you're not honest with yourself."

Logically, that's how it should be (not morally, logically) happening, but it isn't. Perhaps it's the sheer amount of complaining issued from the Quebec government... perhaps separatists and federalists in Quebec both realize that they can milk the federal cash cow for more than everyone else... Or maybe it's because Quebec, by population, holds more political swing than the Western provinces and the territories combined...

"Another thing is that MUCH money is lost with two stage of governement."

This is a bureaucratic problem... the fed.gov is supposed to be taking care of DIFFERENT things than the provincial government. Perhaps Quebec has run into a problem with overlap because they've gained local control over things that the rest of the provinces haven't... and the gov't substructure isn't removed when that happened.

"Another point is that we don't want the same things as other canadians."

I'm curious... is there really a strong priority split between "French Quebec" and the rest of Canada? I thought we were really just fragmented randomly...

"And neglecting Quebec's needs for too long could someday result in a civil war... who knows."

I dunno if I'd fight in that... if you guys want to leave that badly, then...

"Just remember, nine beavers around a frog telling her that she is a beaver like them won't make her anymore beaver."

Uh... I'm not sure about this, but isn't "Frog" a racial epithet when used in reference to a French person?

I have nothing to add to what Johnny Lurker said except one thing:

""anglo-canadians where willing to go fight for the queen... we were FAR from willing"

So there wasn't Quebeçois support for defending France's sovreignty? That was the Western front, after all..."

As far as I am aware, the citizens of Quebec a) didn't want to fight under the British banner, and b) needed farmhands to remain on the home front because agriculture was the main source of Quebec's wealth back then (as far as I know, it has since been replaced by hydropower).

Just wanted to clear that up.

"The government has no right to choose what people and private groups say, OR IN WHAT LANGUAGE THEY SAY IT IN."

I agree. And in an important way, so does the Government of Quebec: corporations, companies, and other corporate entities, are not people, and are not opinions in themselves; they are commercial entities, and the idea is to demand that they show an francophone view on their outside.
As for french school (you didn't mention that, so I'll give a preemptive counter-argument!), english residents can send their children to english school, but newly arrived citizens must send them to french school, at least at the primary level and high-school (where english courses are mandatory). That way, the children eventually turn out bilingual.

I personally do not think that those laws are absolutely necessary, but in the case of the children I think it can only do them good, being bilingual.
I personally find it great.

"We do not share common ancesters"

"Actually, as far as I know, we do. Aside from Adam and Eve... The Normans (French) did take over Britain to some extent, to my knowledge... William the Conqueror ring any bells?"

Well then we're all brother. 6 000 000 000 humans being from the same common ancestor. Come on.

"We do not speak the same language"

"Speak for yourself. I speak French and English (Which are closely related - same character set, same dependencies on Latin, etc., etc.)."

So do I. At least I think I can express myself in english but the point is that your native language is not mine.

"We do not have the same values"

"Perhaps not. If you mean Catholic vs. Protestant, then there's a bit of a valid point there... the two groups are not as far apart as some claim, though."

Not talking about that at all but it has it's part in the education. I'm talking about general values. Like hospitality goes first here before economy. Ever heard of the french-canadian christmas parties?

"anglo-canadians where willing to go fight for the queen... we were FAR from willing"

"So there wasn't Quebeçois support for defending France's sovreignty? That was the Western front, after all..."

No

"how much will go to the guy nobody understand and that act in a completely different manner and misunderstood ways? Not much unless you're not honest with yourself."

"Logically, that's how it should be (not morally, logically) happening, but it isn't. Perhaps it's the sheer amount of complaining issued from the Quebec government... perhaps separatists and federalists in Quebec both realize that they can milk the federal cash cow for more than everyone else... Or maybe it's because Quebec, by population, holds more political swing than the Western provinces and the territories combined..."

I think you're missing my point here

"Another thing is that MUCH money is lost with two stage of governement."

"This is a bureaucratic problem... the fed.gov is supposed to be taking care of DIFFERENT things than the provincial government. Perhaps Quebec has run into a problem with overlap because they've gained local control over things that the rest of the provinces haven't... and the gov't substructure isn't removed when that happened."

That's sure but it's not the worst problem. That's just a positive side-effect of separation.

"And neglecting Quebec's needs for too long could someday result in a civil war... who knows."

"I dunno if I'd fight in that... if you guys want to leave that badly, then..."

I certainly hope we never have to get there

"Just remember, nine beavers around a frog telling her that she is a beaver like them won't make her anymore beaver."

"Uh... I'm not sure about this, but isn't "Frog" a racial epithet when used in reference to a French person?"

Usually used for french-canadians, or Québecois,

That means that we'll never be the same, even if you'd like to. Sure, I know it's not out of bad feeling toward us that you'd like we all be unite and the same. We know you think it's a good idea and that would be the best for everybody. But that's not how WE see it and you have to respect that. We now want to fly by ourselves and should it happens crash by ourselves or fly high in the skies. But at least we'll be able to say we tried everything we could to be ourselves and have our own free country.

(sorry, was feeling a little "braveheart")

Shan

Actually Shan, "frog" is use by the brits to name the french; here it was extended by the anglo-canadians to name the franco-canadians.
But as for what we call them, ie "sqare-heads", I don't know if the French call the Brits that way...

As for being all brothers... Science does conjecture that this is true, having all our common ancestors somewhere in Africa, or even further away in some rich pond... Christianism talks about Adam and Eve... Some Native-American tribes also talk about common ancestry. And for all we know, we may all be Mind-Childs of The Matrix...

Okay. I've got a good idea. Shanamir, so I can better understand your opinion on this issue, and what problems with the current system or benefits of a future "Québec libre" you're focusing on - how about this: Let's say Quebec separated, and you're the premier of Quebec (now the "prime minister" or whatever you want to call yourself). What kind of relationship would you establish with Canada? What kind of proposal would you put in place? Details, please... just saying "sovereignty-association" or something won't cut it...

Cover what you want to accomplish with culture, with the economy, with land, with trade, with language laws... I'd like to hear it.

Yeah Shan, try to do all alone what hundreds of politician before have not been able to realize... C'mon, you can do it!

IP, I'd like to know more of the West's view of the Ref... heu... the Alliance Party.
Myself haven't payed attention to their discourse yet, even though I've heard some negative opinions about them.
I'd like then to hear from a westerner, wheter or not he/she is for that Party or not.

Reform sucked, primarily because of Manning. The Canadian Alliance isn't bad... I have some degree of support for them. Before it was formed - actually, only before Stockwell Day was elected as its leader - I was one of the very few Liberal supporters in the West, not because I particularly like their principles - the consolidation of power in Ontario is a major strike against them amongst all Westerners - but because they've been running things rather smoothly the last few years. I mean, sure you can point out all the stuff they've made mistakes in, but when you get down to it, we out here in the West haven't been treated too poorly by them. However, I have heard stories about former Liberal governments bullying us around for our oil industry back in the days before I was around...

What kind of negative opinions have you heard about them?

Mostly about their being "rednecks", or right-wing-ultra-religious-conservatives... well, that means they're branded as the Republican Party equivalent in Canada!

"corporations, companies, and other corporate entities, are not people"

Not in the strictest sense of the word. However, they are groups of people. The shareholders have sovreignty over the corporate body... and this corporate body also should not be ordered around on trivial things like having English and French in equal sized fonts.

It is, to be blunt, none of the government's business...

And might I add that Crown corporations are a markedly different case than private or public corporations...

"demand that they show an francophone view on their outside."

Who are we to demand that corporations behave a certain way? If we are their consumers, we can manipulate our buying power... if we are their shareholders, we can place our votes.

But the government must not be allowed to take away corporate freedom of expression - it is essentially the same thing as personal - except that the expression's on behalf of a group.

"As for french school"

I don't care about French school. I took French for twelve years in school, and I know enough about it for my purposes. Perhaps a bit too much, even.

"Well then we're all brother. 6 000 000 000 humans being from the same common ancestor. Come on."

I guess it didn't ring a bell, then.

William was, in a nutshell, French.
He was crowned the King of England.

The Normans (French) intermingled with the Anglo-Saxons. (English)

Common ancestors, less than 1000 years back.

There you go.

"the point is that your native language is not mine."

Oh, so now it's _native_ language? So I could learn French at the Academy, learn every nuance of both the official and the "vulgar" mannerisms, and it still wouldn't matter?

That doesn't make sense to me.

"Not talking about that at all but it has it's part in the education."

I didn't get my values from the education system.

In fact, I pity anyone who did.

"Like hospitality goes first here before economy."

Two words: Stampede Breakfast.

"I think you're missing my point here"

No.

(I'm sorry, I couldn't help it)

I'm not missing your point... it's just that the "odd man out" holds more swing than most of the brothers... he also complains the loudest.

"The squeaky wheel gets the grease"

"That's just a positive side-effect of separation."

That makes absolutely NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.

I CANNOT understand what that had to do with what I or you were talking about.

"you'd like we all be unite and the same"

People don't have to be the same to unite.

"We now want to fly by ourselves and should it happens crash by ourselves or fly high in the skies."

I'll bet my computer on "crash".

"As for being all brothers..."

I mentioned the Norman invasion for a reason.

"Mostly about their being "rednecks", or right-wing-ultra-religious-conservatives... well, that means they're branded as the Republican Party equivalent in Canada!"

The American Republican party is a bunch of soft centrists.

I very much hope that the Alliance doesn't end up like that.

"trivial things like having English and French in equal sized fonts."

I agree up to a point: this "measuring" business isn't one of the proudest law of Quebec!
But I don't think a "corporate body" should be considered as having all the rights of an individual. Where to draw the line... well I'm no lawyer.
But I certainly don't care that a store's name ends with "'s" !!!

"Who are we to demand that corporations behave a certain way?"

We are individuals, you and I, that are more important than corporations, although the reality may try to make us think differently sometimes. By the democratically elected government, whose views are well-known by the voters, we act directly on those corporations.
If that is not legal, then it is to the courts to decide (and I guess the courts are of your opinion these days!!!)

"Perhaps a bit too much, even"

Please tell me what that meant.


"The American Republican party is a bunch of soft centrists. I very much hope that the Alliance doesn't end up like that."

So, where is it (the Alliance) now?

"But I don't think a "corporate body" should be considered as having all the rights of an individual."

Now that it's not 2 A.M., and I'm not half asleep, I can speak a bit more coherently on this one.

A corporate body acts on behalf of its owners and/or its employees. If these groups of people decide to exercise their freedom of speech corporately (That was a bad choice of words), then the government really has no right whatsoever to stop them.

However, if they want to exercise their freedom of _expression_, that's a slightly different case. I am of the opinion that the customers of the businesses or corporations in Quebec should let them know if bilingual labelling, manuals, etc., etc. are important to them, and back that up with their buying power. Aside from that, the government should ONLY force businesses to do bilingual labelling for SAFETY purposes... anything else is unlawful.

"We are individuals, you and I, that are more important than corporations"

Don't forget that the corporation is owned by a group of people. They're in charge of it.

"If that is not legal, then it is to the courts to decide"

I guess that's what it all comes down to, doesn't it?

"Please tell me what that meant."

Nothing horribly ominous or anything... I just could have gone without my high-school French courses altogether, and still had an acceptable knowledge of the language.

"So, where is it (the Alliance) now?"

I must admit, I haven't looked very closely at them.

You could always visit www.canadianalliance.ca/index_e.cfm - go straight to the source. And yes, the site's bilingual.

It looks pretty good to me.

Did I mention that as I type this right now, I am one floor directly above the Canadian Alliance's offices? (It might just be the headquarters for this riding but I'm not sure.)

"go straight to the source"

*ROFL*

Johnny, You don't have to be arrogant to make a point


"Common ancestors, less than 1000 years back."

Yeah right, lots of thing happens in 1000 years by the way. I'll NEVER consider to have same ancestors as a canadian or a british, point.

As I told you, and I tell you again, you could find a common ancestor with a african would you go couple of thousands years before. So don't common ancestor me.

"Oh, so now it's _native_ language? So I could learn French at the Academy, learn every nuance of both the official and the "vulgar" mannerisms, and it still wouldn't matter?"

And still wouldn't. When I first talk about language, for me it was native language, as a relatively low percentage of the population is bilingual. The fact is that you were raised in english and me, in french. That makes us different.

"I didn't get my values from the education system."

EDUCATION FROM YOUR PARENTS, duh. Unless you learned nothing from them?...

"In fact, I pity anyone who did."

Ok... now I know why you have no respect.

"Two words: Stampede Breakfast."

Sorry but I don't know what's a Stampede breakfast...

"That's just a positive side-effect of separation."

"I CANNOT understand what that had to do with what I or you were talking about."

Ok... I'll explain it to you... follow me... two stage of gov. "[Eliminating a stage is] a positive side-effect of separation."

Sorry 'bout that one, I thought you would easily understand

"you'd like we all be unite and the same"

"People don't have to be the same to unite."

Yes, it's true, but it helps. And then why would we want to unite if we're not the same?

"I'll bet my computer on "crash"."

That's your guess... or your hopes should I say?

Anyway, there's no need for that sentence. If you want to insult people, go elsewhere. I don't intend to let you insult me, but still I'm civilised. Unless you can prove what you say, I'd like you to take it back.

And, by the way, you did not bring anything new or new arguments, if you wanna argue, bring your own points instead of trying to only break mine. (That don't mean you can't try... just don't do only that)