The drowning of Numenor

[Landroval]

You see, Eru never spoke to Men directly, did he?

Part of this was once my signature :

The Voice had spoken to us, and we had listened. The Voice said:
- Ye are my children. I have sent you to dwell here. In time ye will inherit all this Earth, but first ye must be children and learn. Call on me and I shall hear; for I am watching over you.
We understood the Voice in our hearts, though we had no words yet. Then the desire for words awoke in us, and we began to make them. But we were few, and the world was wide and strange. Though we greatly desired to understand, learning was difficult, and the making of words was slow. In that time we called often and the Voice answered. But it seldom answered our questions, saying only:
- First seek to find the answer for yourselves. For ye will have joy in the finding, and so grow from childhood and become wise. Do not seek to leave childhood before your time.

And Eru hardly had any emotions, baring childish anger, when His plans went astray.

First of all, the valar requested His intervention; and in the greater scheme of things:

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.
...
The Drama depends on His design and His will for its beginning and continuance, in every detail and moment

What Eru himself planned and designed is just unknown, except in rendition or interpretation

Indeed, He never left any "stone tablets" around; His only mark, visible in all Men, is that "the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein". Children ever longing for their Creator .

[Olmer]

Thanks for quote, Landroval.
IMHO it's a wishfull thinking, and an earnest desire to find a scape goat.

Originally Posted by Landroval

And how was the oppression of the numenoreans continued?

"...Though war never ceased on their borders, for more than thousand years the Dunedain of the South grew in wealth and power by land and sea"...;
...(Gondor) "won much territory eastwards", drowing the "wild men" out of their homeland;
..."Gondor reached the summit of its power. The realm then extended north to Celebrant and the south eaves of Mirkwood;west to the Greyflood;east to the inland Sea of Rhun; south to the river harnen, and hence along the coast to the peninsula and haven of Umbar"As Gondor's expansion grew, so grew its appetite, the plundering of seized coutries grew up and therefore the wealth an power of Gondor reached such proportions, when «…precious stones are pebbles in Gondor for children to play with“(RotK.Appendix A) and "...the kings of the Harad did homage to Gondor, and their sons lived as hostages in the court its Kings..." , in making sure in this way, that any attempts of uncooperation from the defeated Rulers will be timely terminated.

Does not it sounds somehow familiar?
They were getting the spoils and slaves in a manner of the best Numenorian's traditions .

[Valandil]

But not Arnor... THEY were the Good Guys!

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

But not Arnor... THEY were the Good Guys!

Honestly, Valandil, how good they had been if they were at each other throat?

[Valandil]

Oh them? That was just the rebellious ones in Cardolan and Rhudaur.

[Landroval]

Does not it sounds somehow familiar?
They were getting the spoils and slaves in a manner of the best Numenorian's traditions .

I don't see any mention of _plunder_ and slaves ('high level' hostages and tributes are a different matter) - nor of torturing and sacrificing people to Melkor.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Oh them? That was just the rebellious ones in Cardolan and Rhudaur.

Their rebellion cost the lost of the whole strong kingdom.
Note, it happened at the time, when, as an opposite , Gondor was growing in power.
I read M. Martinez essay, which you provided to me some time ago.
It's not like I agree with all his assumptions, but he has a strong point: by whatever reasons the kingdom fell apart, the poor leadership and over- ambitiousness of the princes played not the last role in this misfortune.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I don't see any mention of _plunder_ and slaves ('high level' hostages and tributes are a different matter) - nor of torturing and sacrificing people to Melkor.

The Numenoreans were sacrificing people to Melkor for only a short period - while Sauron was at the island. Not before.

[Landroval]

The Numenoreans were sacrificing people to Melkor for only a short period - while Sauron was at the island. Not before.

Yet the fact that they were doing this for a period of maximum 57 years doesn't mean it was a passing trend - only Eru's will could (and indeed) stop it, nothing else. True, oppression didn't start with the numenoreans, nor did it end with them, and their cruel practices might have a parallel in the far East, but claiming that late Numenor and Gondor in _any_ period are comparable in terms of oppression is a far stretch of imagination.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Landroval

...but claiming that late Numenor and Gondor in _any_ period are comparable in terms of oppression is a far stretch of imagination.

"...for a time its splendor grew, until it recalled the wealth and majesty of Numenor ere it fell." (The Silmarillion) And why their wealth reached such magnitude? Because they were taking lands of their neighbors in the way, just like their Numenor's ancestors did:"...and they came no longer as bringers of gifts, not even as rulers, but as fierece men of war... and they hunted the Men of Middle-earth and took their goods and enslaved them..."to do a dirty jobs serving majesic people of Numenor, to buld their fortresses and tombs.
Do you really think that fortresses and tombs of Gondor was bult by hands of the king and his soldiers, or by hands of citizens of Gondor, children of which were throwing a gemstones - which, probably, with great difficuly were acquired by the rules of the oppressed lands to pay a tribute to Gondor? Do you really think that with the wealth of such immensity the people of Gondor were serving themselves or any willing and unwilling guests of the kingdom?
Of course, not! They had slavery and they collected VERY HEAVY contributions from all lands under their dominion, all in the undying traditions of the late Numenor.
And in the terms of expansion of the kingdom they even outdid their forefathers.

[Landroval]

In the appendixes, it is mentioned that the Wainriders took slaves and also the Dunlendings - but never the descendants of Numenor.

It is farely safe to assume that they made by themselves the Argonaths (in which Aragorn takes great pride) and Orthanc (which is a unique building, unrivalled by others in ME) - I doubt that they had problems building whatever great tombs or fortresses. So far, I see no ground to your idea.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

In the appendixes, it is mentioned that the Wainriders took slaves and also the Dunlendings - but never the descendants of Numenor.

It is farely safe to assume that they made by themselves the Argonaths (in which Aragorn takes great pride) and Orthanc (which is a unique building, unrivalled by others in ME) - I doubt that they had problems building whatever great tombs or fortresses. So far, I see no ground to your idea.

I would say, that taking slaves from the enemy territories during wars, and "enslaving" the whole subject population of the lands they ruled are slightly different things.

I think there is little doubt, that Numenoreans -those who came on the ships of Isildur and Anarion + those Faithful who already were in Pelargir - were but a small part of Gondor population. There had to be much greater native population, "enslaved" or just opressed by Numenoreans.
I doubt they had been happy, like those men of Dunharrow, or like dwellers of Enedwaith, to have to bow to the Numenoreans and work for them.
Their hands built Isengard and the walls of Minas Tirith, Osgiliath and M. Ithil.
Of course, the architects, supervisors etc. were Numenoreans.

[Landroval]

I think there is little doubt, that Numenoreans -those who came on the ships of Isildur and Anarion + those Faithful who already were in Pelargir - were but a small part of Gondor population. There had to be much greater native population, "enslaved" or just opressed by Numenoreans.

I disagree - they came as friends among friends:

Originally Posted by Of the rings of power and the third age, Silmarillion

Isildur and Anarion were borne away southwards, and at the last they brought their ships up the Great River Anduin, that flows out of Rhovanion into the western sea in the Bay of Belfalas; and they established a realm in those lands that were after called Gondor, whereas the Northern Kingdom was named Arnor. Long before in the days of their power the mariners of Numenor had established a haven and strong places about the mouths of Anduin, in despite of Sauron in the Black Land that lay nigh upon the east. In the later days to this haven came only the Faithful of Numenor, and many therefore of the folk of the coastlands in that region were in whole or in part akin to the Elf-friends and the people of Elendil, and they welcomed his sons.

Their hands built Isengard and the walls of Minas Tirith, Osgiliath and M. Ithil.Of course, the architects, supervisors etc. were Numenoreans.

Why do you assume that? Even in the Silmarillion, there is no such refference:

These were the chief dwellings of the Numenoreans in Gondor, but other works marvellous and strong they built in the land in the days of their power, at the Argonath, and at Aglarond, and at Erech; and in the circle of Angrenost, which Men called Isengard, they made the Pinnacle of Orthanc of unbreakable stone.
Many treasures and great heirlooms of virtue and wonder the Exiles had brought from Numenor

Even if the Numenoreans couldn't have done it themselves, they still had the means to employ others, not enslave them.

[Gordis]

Landroval, in all fairness, what does your quote say?

In the later days to this haven came only the Faithful of Numenor, and many therefore of the folk of the coastlands in that region were in whole or in part akin to the Elf-friends and the people of Elendil, and they welcomed his sons.

The sons of Elendil were welcomed by those who were Numenoreans and moreover, their kin! It doesn't tell anything of the feelings of the native population.

What do we know of the native population? Let us take the People of the Mountains (within Gondor borders):

For at Erech there stands yet a black stone that was brought, it was said, from Númenor by Isildur; and it was set upon a hill, and upon it the King of the Mountains swore allegiance to him in the beginning of the realm of Gondor. But when Sauron returned and grew in might again, Isildur summoned the Men of the Mountains to fulfil their oath, and they would not: for they had worshipped Sauron in the Dark Years.

So, they allied themselves with Isildur at the beginning, but it seems their hearts were still with their former Lord, Sauron.Or, perhaps, by the War of the Last Alliance they came to understand that Gondor rule brought them nothing but misery?

"The Dunlendings were a remnant of the peoples that had dwelt in the vales of the White Mountains in ages past. The Dead Men of Dunharrow were of their kin. But in the Dark Years others had removed to the southern dales of the Misty Mountains, and thence some had passed into the empty lands as far north as the Barrow-downs. From them came the Men of Bree; but long before these had become subjects of the North Kingdom of Arnor and had taken up the Westron tongue. Only in Dunland did Men of this race hold to their old speech and manners: a secret folk, un-friendly to the Dúnedain, hating the Rohirrim."

Now, the neighbouring countries. Why do you think the Easterlings and the Haradrim and the Khandians have allied themselves with Mordor? Not an attractive realm, Mordor, clearly diabolical... So, why ? Because they preferred it to Gondor, their ancient enemy and oppressor. It seems Harad had not been happy under the Gondor rule. Neither was Umbar.

As for reading that "the Numenoreans built the statues at Argonath, Minas Tirith, Isengard etc.", you can also read that "Pharaohs built the Pyramids". That doesn't mean that the poor Pharaohs had to toil day and night hauling stones, does it? The subject native population in Gondor may have been treated better than the Egyptian slaves, but still...All those cyclopean constructions mean only misery for common people. And Tolkien himself compared the Numenorean kingdoms with the Ancient Egypt.

[Landroval]

The sons of Elendil were welcomed by those who were Numenoreans and moreover, their kin! It doesn't tell anything of the feelings of the native population.

That is one way of reading it, not necessarily the right one; the way I see it, there was no resentment among the coastland dwellers, quite the contrary; I am still looking for a posivite proof that the descendants of numenor enslaved people - I certainly doubt they enslaved those of their own blood (since they ruled "with wisdom" - well, for the most part... Why did other people choose to continue to follow the way of Melkor? I don't know - it may be because they never saw the 'light' (in letter #131, Tolkien notes that "But Sauron dominates all the multiplying hordes of Men that have had no contact with the Elves and so indirectly with the true and Unfallen Valar and gods"); furthermore, in the Silmarillion, it is noted

Originally Posted by Of the voyage of Elendil and the war of wrath

Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

Moreover:

Originally Posted by Of the rings of power and the third age, Silmarillion

The servants of Sauron were routed and dispersed, yet they were not wholly destroyed; and though many Men turned now from evil and became subject to the heirs of Elendil, yet many more remembered Sauron in their hearts and hated the kingdoms of the West

The good guys sided with the numenoreans
And finnally:

Originally Posted by The new shadow, HoME XII

Since we are dealing with Men it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless

All too true...

[Olmer]

...and though many Men turned now from evil and became subject to the heirs of Elendil, yet many more remembered Sauron in their hearts and hated the kingdoms of the West

Landroval, did you ever asked yourself, why many more? which translates that it were much less of these Men, who acknowledged
the "good" kingdom?
How good the "good guys" if the majority of population wants to have NOTHING with them, even HATING them?

[Landroval]

I think I gave enough proof that it was the evil inside Men's heart that turned them to evil's side; orcs are in almost unredeemable allegiance to evil, and Tolkien notes that even some humans of the primary reality resemble them - the same case can be made of those who Men who turned to Sauron and against the numenoreans.

[CrazySquirrel]

I believe Olmer and Gordis have the stronger case.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

I believe Olmer and Gordis have the stronger case.

Wishful thinking . I am still waiting for _one_ positive proof concerning the enslavings done by the Gondor. Or that there was any other reason than the corruption of Men which turned/kept them to Sauron's side and against the numenoreans.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Wishful thinking . I am still waiting for _one_ positive proof concerning the enslavings done by the Gondor. Or that there was any other reason than the corruption of Men which turned/kept them to Sauron's side and against the numenoreans.

Mark that not all the peoples who hated the Dunedain were in league with Sauron. Take the Dunlandings. Umbar was always opposed to Gondor, but not always in league with Mordor. The Hillmen hated the Dunedain of Arnor before they turned to Angmar. And so on.

Why, even the Breelanders were not very fond of Rangers!

Isn't it more logical to suppose that the Dunedain were hated because they were hateful?