Did Saruman die? And what of Saruman's ring?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I doubt he would be allowed to take a physical form again. (Wouldn't the Valar have to allow it?)

The Ainur, both Valar and Maiar, can create a physical form for themselves in they have a sufficient reserve of creative power/energy.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Is it not true that the Maiar are all Ainur. To be a little more specific they are of the same form of Ainur as the Valar and Valier but of less stature!? It says that only the greatest iof the Valar were the Aratar. So with that understanding Saruman could take physical form without any approval from the Aratar. Am I wrong?

Anyhow when Curumo dies his physical, or Middle-Earth form dies leaving only his Valar-Maiar form behind. With this form he no doubt tries to return to Valinor but in doing so finds that the Aratar are wrathful for his greed and failure to accomplish his true goal. The Aratar send Curumo away from Valinor possibly to remain in Middle-Earth, with no power, untill the end of that world, or to another place... possibly the void.

I think also that when Curumo died in Middle-Earth he had already a weakend spirit due to his ring making. We know for fact that Curumo was attempting to create his own ring of power, so, if Sauron used part of his own essence to form the ring, would not Curumo need to do something similar?

[The Wizard from Milan]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

I think also that when Curumo died in Middle-Earth he had already a weakend spirit due to his ring making. We know for fact that Curumo was attempting to create his own ring of power, so, if Sauron used part of his own essence to form the ring, would not Curumo need to do something similar?

Sure! But that is precisely why I "fear" that Saruman is not banised forever. Indeed the fact that Sauron put some of his essence in the one ring turns out to be his advantage (not disadvantage) for his immortality on Middle Earth (until the ring lasts).
So if Saruman did the same thing, there is at least a possiblity that Saruman cannot really be banished from Middle Earth until his ring is destroyed

[Nurvingiel]

Thanks for the info Lefty Scaevola.

Originally Posted by me9996

And (if I am corect) there wa only bone left when saruman died.

The passage from RotK that I quoted earlier strongly suggests that his physical body remained, but lacking its spirit (which had preserved it to a point I guess) it looked much older and "touched by death" as Frodo observed. That passage tells me that only his spirit left.


Also, just because Saruman made a ring doesn't necessarily mean he was as good at it as Sauron or Celebrimbor. He was presumably self-taught, and going by old records and lore. It's really hard to teach yourself something like that, and though I'm sure he was quite adept at it, I doubt his ring would be infused with as much power as the One or the Three.

Originally Posted by me9996

Looting, right?

I have been PWNED. But Mithrand1r beat you to it.

You guys were just waiting for a chance to correct my spelling weren't you.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Most likely, well more of a deffinetly, Curumo didn't have the same ring making power as Sauron but I don't think he was as self taught as you think. Curumo was a maia of Aule after all, and his life did not start on Middle-Earth as Saruman. There is no telling how long he has been "learning" from Aule! I doub't he used much of his own being to form his "ring" so I don't feel the existence of his ring would be a cause for him to linger as Sauron did. I feel instead that he was left on Middle-Earth with no form only his "Maia Spirit" to drift almost aimlessly untill the ending of this world. I think that would be quite punishment enough.

[me9996]

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

Sure! But that is precisely why I "fear" that Saruman is not banised forever. Indeed the fact that Sauron put some of his essence in the one ring turns out to be his advantage (not disadvantage) for his immortality on Middle Earth (until the ring lasts).
So if Saruman did the same thing, there is at least a possiblity that Saruman cannot really be banished from Middle Earth until his ring is destroyed

If that was so, tolken would have made a sequil.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Well Tolkien says himself (not sure where) that with the end of the Third age it was alos the end of evil in one domminant form. Even if TWfM is right I don't think the powers placed into the Saruman ring would have been enough to sustain him as in the Sauron One Ring case. Furthermore Sauron had a phsyical form even durring the time of the War of The Ring, it was Peter Jackson who identified Sauron with only being an eye!(which is wrong)

[Imric]

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

Sure! But that is precisely why I "fear" that Saruman is not banised forever. Indeed the fact that Sauron put some of his essence in the one ring turns out to be his advantage (not disadvantage) for his immortality on Middle Earth (until the ring lasts).
So if Saruman did the same thing, there is at least a possiblity that Saruman cannot really be banished from Middle Earth until his ring is destroyed

In my opinion, Saruman's ring would have been rendered powerless (charitably assuming it ever had any power to begin with) when the One Ring itself was destroyed, in exactly the same way the Three Rings (Narya, Nenya and Vilya) were stripped of all potency at that time. Recall that the Great Rings made by the Elves were partly crafted using knowledge and techniques derived from Sauron's teachings. Sauron's corruptive influence linked those rings to the fate of his own. Any ring forged by Saruman was certain to be based upon scraps and fragments of lore left over from Celebrimbor's tragic experiments, lore that was contaminated with Sauron's taint. I feel this contamination would have rendered Saruman's ring as vulnerable as the Three, and as doomed to fail at that moment when the One Ring fell into the Cracks of Doom. Hence, I don't believe there is any possibility that Saruman could ever return to Middle-earth in a new shape via the power of a ring which is now nothing more than a mere band of tainted gold.

[Forkbeard]

Doesn't Gandalf say somewhere about Sauron that he would be an impotent spirit wandering Middle Earth but incapable of doing anything significant now?
In which case, isn't that also suggestive of Saruman's spirit as well, particularly given the similarities in their "dispersal"?

[Findegil]

To the state of Saruman after his death:
I think we have to look what hapened to Gandalf when his bied after the battle with the Balrog: He came into the presence of Iluvatar. If we take this together with the statment that it was part of the restrictions of the Istari that they came to Middle-Earth as Men, I conclude that this was exactly what happened to any of the Istari if their physical body was distroied: Thier spirit left Eä and was brought before Eru. What happened to them afterwards was surely in the hand of Eru. Gandalf was send back, clerly not to further the destruction of the Ring, this he had already set in motion and what help was needed was provided by Eru himself in the Sammarth Iaur. Gandalf was sent back to rescue the western zivilisation which otherwise would have been swept out.
No such task would be obvious for Saruman, so I don't think that Eru would sent him back.

To the discussion of Sarumans Ring:
Tolkien makes it clear in the forword to the Lor of the Rings that Saruman did not discover Saurons secrets in ringmaking. Thus if he was succesfull at all with his ringmaking (other than froming a band of metal fitting on his finger, which ability he surely had) than he must have depended of the lore of the Gwaith-i-MÃ*rdan which he studied so long. So I am with Imric here. If he used the same technipue his Ring would have the same "defects": It would have been dominated by the One, if the One was used for that purpose, and it was riped of all its powers when the One was destroied.
But we can alos not be sure that Saruman was succesfull with his ringmaking. He was a liar and it might be that he was only trying to impress Gandalf.

Respectfully
Findegil

[me9996]

Originally Posted by Findegil

To the state of Saruman after his death:
I think we have to look what hapened to Gandalf when his bied after the battle with the Balrog: He came into the presence of Iluvatar. If we take this together with the statment that it was part of the restrictions of the Istari that they came to Middle-Earth as Men, I conclude that this was exactly what happened to any of the Istari if their physical body was distroied: Thier spirit left Eä and was brought before Eru. What happened to them afterwards was surely in the hand of Eru. Gandalf was send back, clerly not to further the destruction of the Ring, this he had already set in motion and what help was needed was provided by Eru himself in the Sammarth Iaur. Gandalf was sent back to rescue the western zivilisation which otherwise would have been swept out.
No such task would be obvious for Saruman, so I don't think that Eru would sent him back.

To the discussion of Sarumans Ring:
Tolkien makes it clear in the forword to the Lor of the Rings that Saruman did not discover Saurons secrets in ringmaking. Thus if he was succesfull at all with his ringmaking (other than froming a band of metal fitting on his finger, which ability he surely had) than he must have depended of the lore of the Gwaith-i-MÃ*rdan which he studied so long. So I am with Imric here. If he used the same technipue his Ring would have the same "defects": It would have been dominated by the One, if the One was used for that purpose, and it was riped of all its powers when the One was destroied.
But we can alos not be sure that Saruman was succesfull with his ringmaking. He was a liar and it might be that he was only trying to impress Gandalf.

Respectfully
Findegil

Okay, time to close the tread good-bye!

[Nurvingiel]

Lol Me9996. Though Findegil's post was very impressive (nice one Fin ), there is still room for discussion.

I think there's still a bit of ambiguity around what would become of Saruman's spirit. I agree that he wouldn't be sent back to Middle-earth, but would he be punished? Rest in the halls of Mandos?

Also, would he be able to recover after a few thousand years and again take a physical form, like Sauron did?

Finally, slightly OT, but who is Gwaith-i-MÃ*rdan? I thought someone said earlier he studied under Aulë. (Or does he also have two names, as many residents of Arda seem to.)

[The Gaffer]

The Gwaith-i-MÃ*rdan were a group of elves, possibly the Eregion ones who made the Rings, but can't remember exactly.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

I believed it was along the same lines as a sort of a guild, a guild of ringmakers, if you will

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Also, would he be able to recover after a few thousand years and again take a physical form, like Sauron did?

In my opinion: no. I think that the Istari are a different class of Maiar, more bound to their flesh and so not able to reform (either change or recreate) their own physical form. At least, not by themselves. Hence their unchanging appearance as old men.

For Gandalf it required going west and be given a new form by Iluvátar or the Valar (I forget which), Saruman was obviously denied that option seen the cold western wind blew him apart.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Imric

In my opinion, Saruman's ring would have been rendered powerless (charitably assuming it ever had any power to begin with) when the One Ring itself was destroyed, in exactly the same way the Three Rings (Narya, Nenya and Vilya) were stripped of all potency at that time.

Agree on it. Especially if you take in consideration Radagast's words that while looking for the One, Saruman supposedly acquired one of the dwarve's Rings of Power " the last of the 19 rings he had"..(HOME.Treason of Isengard.)
I think it was just a proud boasting about making the Ring in front of the Grey Wizard.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Olmer

I think it was just a proud boasting about making the Ring in front of the Grey Wizard.

I wouldn't put it passed him, especially considering Saruman's arrogant behaviour towards Gandalf's use of tobacco, while he himself secretly ordered tonnes of the stuff from the Shire. He's one sneaky fellow, that Saruman.

[me9996]

He's dead! We can't say otherwise...

[Jon S.]

Saruman's not dead - he's resting.



http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/jokes/m...on-parrot.html

[me9996]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Saruman's not dead - he's resting.



http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/jokes/m...on-parrot.html

Fine...