Gandalf the White

[Blackheart]

"(at least to me it seems Tolkien is referring to his age and not the fact the he has been in ME longer when he says eldest)"

Since they are maiar and all maiar are ainur, and all ainur were created at the same "time", I think that it sort of HAS to referr to the times they arrived in M.E.

The fact that Olorion is glad in grey in valinor might have something to to do with the fact that he spent much time in the gardens of NIENNA...

[squinteyedsoutherner]

"Of these Curunir was the eldest AND came first"

I believe means that Saruman was the first to "forgo might and clothe himself in flesh" The Istari had to relearn things. Their previous knowledge and wisdom were "dimmed". It was a "rebirth" of sorts. Saruman arrived in Middle-earth before Gandalf (and according to UT Gandalf came last). I would assume that one could not become flesh, still hang around in Valinor and then come to Middle-earth at a later date - that doesn't make sense to me at all, in fact it defeats the whole purpose. UT says they appeared "about the year 1000 of the third age" that is pretty vague and certainly leaves open the possibility that even years may have separated the first and last arrival.

I don't mean to be arguementative but I can't imagine that a writer would refer to a person as "eldest" and expect the reader to infer anything other than oldest in birth order. I think "eldest" can only apply to this "age difference" otherwise the sentence is misleading and redundant.

[Embladyne]

TD, I think that your ideas about why Gandalf did not try to escape from Isengard are pretty sound. In fact, I had been considering this theory, but have yet to look for evidence to support it. It seems to me that he would be wise enough not to waste his energy trying to, perhaps futilely, escape. He had other matters more important than his own well-being to deal with.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

The fact that Olorion is glad in grey in valinor might have something to to do with the fact that he spent much time in the gardens of NIENNA...

That's what I assumed, as well. Grey is an appropriate color for mourning, and of the Istari, I believe that Olorin understands most clearly the sorrow of those who die, and why it is important that the mission of the Istari succeed.

[Artanis]

Nice thread Elemmire!

Originally Posted by squinteyedsoutherner

I’ve always taken Manwe’s response to Gandalf’s hesitancy to join the task “all the more reason he should go� to imply that there was a suspicion among the wise in Valinor that despite being the most "powerful" Saruman lacked the appropriate respect for Sauron and in particular Sauron’s ability to corrupt and therefore he was vulnerable. So ultimately Saruman is the greatest weapon but also potentially a very weak link.

I don't think the Valar suspected that Saruman would fail his task and fall, anymore than the others of the Istari. In a way you could say that Gandalf was the only one to remain true to his mission, even if saruman was the only one to become corrupted by Sauron. Radagast got enamoured by the nature in Middle-Earth and occupied himself with that which lay nearest to his heart and chose to forget about his appointed task. Of the last 2 Istari we know very little.

Manwë's words could be taken to mean that Gandalf's humbleness and self-doubt, and his respect for Sauron's power, made him a very different personality from Saruman, and that he therefore would become a perfect companion.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree with you about Saruman Arty. Remember, Manwe thought that Melkor repented when he sued for pardon the second time because there was no evil in him so he could not comprehend evil.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by ElemmÃ*rë

Or is the nature of the Maiar different and more... fluid, for lack of a better word, than I had imagined? Just what sort of transformation did Gandalf truly undergo?

There is a passage in 'Letters' about this. I cannot quote it to you right now, but in essence it says that Gandalf truly died, as we know in combat with the Balrog. His willingness to sacrifice himself, and his willingness to give up his chances of a personal success, was the key to his transformation. He was received by Eru, enhanced both in power and wisdom, and then sent back to fulfil his task.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Artanis wrote :Manwë's words could be taken to mean that Gandalf's humbleness and self-doubt, and his respect for Sauron's power, made him a very different personality from Saruman, and that he therefore would become a perfect companion.

I agree with that except I'm not so sure that I would say companion. I think of the two blue wizards as companions since there is specific mention of friendship between them. Saruman is a little "ticked-off" by Varda's comment in UT before he becomes "flesh" he is also jealous of Cirdan's gift to Gandalf after he becomes "flesh". I think this personality trait along with his pride was probably not unknown in Valinor and given the nature of the task I can't see it raising absolutely no concern at all among the Valar - I just think the upside of Saruman's potential and the inclusion of Olorin out-weighed those concerns.

Artanis wrote: I don't think the Valar suspected that Saruman would fail his task and fall, anymore than the others of the Istari

I disagree here, I think Manwe (at least) had more faith in Olorin than any other.

Dunedain wrote: Remember, Manwe thought that Melkor repented when he sued for pardon the second time because there was no evil in him so he could not comprehend evil.

Very good point, I'm sticking with my views for now, but I had not remembered that.

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by squinteyedsoutherner

"Of these Curunir was the eldest AND came first"
..snip... I think "eldest" can only apply to this "age difference" otherwise the sentence is misleading and redundant.

...Curunir was the eldest (because) he came first ...

Talk about redundancy! That's what eldest means!

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Blackheart wrote:Curunir was the eldest (because) he came first ...
Tokien wrote: Curunir was the eldest and came first

And means in addition to, it is not a synonym for because.

Blackheart wrote: talk about redundancy! That's what eldest means!

Do you understand what I wrote? The sentence would be redundant because you are claiming "eldest" and "arrived first" mean the same thing. If by eldest Tolkien means he came first then why follow it with "and came first"

Blackheart using the adjective eldest to modify a noun (in this case a person) means oldest by birth order.

Of the five women at the party Mary was the eldest and the first to arrive.

means to every reasonable person that Mary is the oldest and she arrived first. It doeas not simply mean she arrived first. Use eldest in a sentence referring to one person in a group that does not infer they are oldest by age.

[The Wizard from Milan]

Originally Posted by squinteyedsoutherner

But at that Varda looked up and said “not as the third� and Curomo remembered it. "

<snip>

It also seems in the Sil that Gandalf is not last to arrive but second although it does not precisely say that it seems implied; so it seems we may have some slight variation on that.

I am not sure whether you are implying a link in these two phrases or not, but I think that the first sentence is to be read as “not as the third, but as the first� and it is figurative speach.

I also wander whether Gandalf was clothed in gray because he was stained by his hesitation to go (I am sure Inked will love this comment). He faltered in front of the task and therefore was not pure. He truly accepted the task only when he accepted to die for it and there the original sin was washed away and he came back white.

[Embladyne]

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

I also wander whether Gandalf was clothed in gray because he was stained by his hesitation to go (I am sure Inked will love this comment). He faltered in front of the task and therefore was not pure. He truly accepted the task only when he accepted to die for it and there the original sin was washed away and he came back white.

I don't agree, mainly beacuse I don't see it as a fault of Gandalf's that he did not have confidence in his ability to defeat Sauron. He really didn't have the power to defeat Sauron. Nobody in ME did. In fact, it was Sauron himself who caused his own defeat. (These are my opinions.)
The color of the Istari's robes is an interesting debate. I'm not sure how to interpret it, but I think it may have something to do with both the roles and the characters of the Istari, but not necessarily as concrete an association as those so far proposed.

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by squinteyedsoutherner

Do you understand what I wrote? The sentence would be redundant because you are claiming "eldest" and "arrived first" mean the same thing. If by eldest Tolkien means he came first then why follow it with "and came first"

I understand fine. I'm just saying I don't agree. If you don't like "because" then substitute "therefore". It makes absolutely no sense to apply Eldest in the birth order sense when you're talking about immortal spirits that have existed since the begining of time.

It really doesn't even make sense when applied to the istari's bodies, since it's quite probable that they were never born of a woman's body to begin with.

If you were never BORN, how can you be the eldest in birth order?

Now if you are talking about a play, then whatever character appears on stage first is the "eldest" character. That's an analogy that I say applies more directly.

Who's older Pan or Hook? Who's eldest? Hook is obviously older. But answering who is eldest gets a lot more complicated.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Let's go over this Blackheart.


I understand fine. I'm just saying I don't agree. If you don't like "because" then substitute "therefore".

Why I am substituting yet another word for and that does not mean the same thing as and?

It makes absolutely no sense to apply Eldest in the birth order sense when you're talking about immortal spirits that have existed since the begining of time. It really doesn't even make sense when applied to the istari's bodies, since it's quite probable that they were never born of a woman's body to begin with.

“Who would go? for they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in a flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and wearinesses coming from the flesh

This is why it makes sense (to me). Birth order in this case has nothing to do with women.

Now if you are talking about a play, then whatever character appears on stage first is the "eldest" character. That's an analogy that I say applies more directly.Who's older Pan or Hook? Who's eldest? Hook is obviously older. But answering who is eldest gets a lot more complicated.

The words oldest and eldest are synonyms. whoever you decide is oldest is also eldest.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Milan wrote: I am not sure whether you are implying a link in these two phrases or not, but I think that the first sentence is to be read as “not as the third, but as the first� and it is figurative speach.

I agree, that quote is why I think that Manwe and Varda had the most faith in Olorin and less in Curunir. I was referring to the wording of the Sil quote: (yeah this one again)

"Of these Curunir was the eldest and came first and after him came Mithrander and Radagast"

which lists Gandalf's name second (although it doesn't say he came second) it does give the impression he was not last which the UT quote directly says. In fact one might even argue it suggests Radagast and Mithrander came together.

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by squinteyedsoutherner

Why I am substituting yet another word for and that does not mean the same thing as and?

I'm not substituting it. I'm changing the sentence. But fine use "in addition to" .... Eldest in addition to came first. He got to middle earth first. And he was eldest. He was the eldest because he got to middle earth first. Because he was embodied first. That's what I've been trying to point at.

He got to middle earth first because he was bodied first.

He was bodied first because he was the first sent to middle earth... therefore that is why he's the "eldest".

Saruman was the eldest because he came first!
Saurman was the eldest therefore he came first!

This is why it makes sense (to me). Birth order in this case has nothing to do with women.

The words oldest and eldest are synonyms. whoever you decide is oldest is also eldest.

Neither one is older than the other! Only the body is older, and they aren't limited to their bodies... Gandalf coming back is a case in point.

What, if you count it that way he was a mere newborn at 6 months or so...

It's like saying you're older than me because you got up earlier this morning and put your clothes on first if you look at it that way.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i believe there is a reference somewhere to allatar and pallando arriving much earlier, at about the same time that glorfindel returned to endor, or was this idea rejected by tolkien in favour of curumo arriving earliest? just my 2 pence

[squinteyedsoutherner]

I can't tell what your point is Blackheart, it seems to have changed, and I'm not wasting any more time trying to follow.

The sentence is this:
"Of these Curunir was the eldest (because he was bodied first) and came first" (because he arrived first)

Not this :
"Of these Curunir was the eldest (because he arrived first) and came first (because he arrived first)

With correct synonyms it could also be written thus:
"Of these Curunir was the oldest and arrived first

I'm done with this sentence.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Last child wrote:i believe there is a reference somewhere to allatar and pallando arriving much earlier, at about the same time that glorfindel returned to endor, or was this idea rejected by tolkien in favour of curumo arriving earliest? just my 2 pence

I think that is correct although I can't recall where that is written. And yes I think Tolkien did revise that to have Saruman arriving first. I'm still not sure of the order following his arrival though. I guess it doesn't really matter much either way.

[Blackheart]

The point was, you misunderstood what I was saying in the first place.

I suppose you misunderstood because I typed "eldest because he arrived first" instead of "arrived first because he was eldest".

To me those mean the roughly same thing in this particular instance. He had to be the eldest because he arrived first, he arrived first because he was eldest. etc.

The only real point that I was trying to make is that eldest really can't have anything to do with age in the normal sense. For some reason you got stuck on grammer.

[me9996]

Saruman got bad, Gandalf got dead, the valar sent Gandalf back in Sarumans place, the end.