Elvish Perception of Time - Page 2

BeardofPants · 01-24-2005, 02:56 PM

SGH is, I believe, right. The two trees waxed and waned according to the time-span of the sun & moon ... which WAS their direct 'descendent', so-to-speak.

ItalianLegolas · 01-24-2005, 03:41 PM

yeah, I have this chart of the exact amounts of time of the waxing and waneing, if I find it I'll post it up

Blackheart · 01-24-2005, 05:48 PM

uhh... you all know that time is relative right?

The question is not whether 5 seconds on a hot stove is longer than 5 seconds kissing a pretty girl... It's whether 5 seconds on a hot stove is longer for an elf or a man... or whether 100 years in jail is longer for an elf than a man...

Time is relative according to the observer. Since elves observe more time (total) than men, the extreme boundries will be compressed, but the present, the nearest observed events, will be about the same.... (think of time as an X axis, and lifespan as a y axis, put a reverse bell curve on it...)

So 5 seconds, a day, a week, is probably perceived about the same. But years, decades, millenia... those are compressed, and experienced differently. Just how differently is a matter of speculation...

Embladyne · 01-24-2005, 08:20 PM

That bellcurve theory sounds pretty good. I'm gonna go think about it for a while...

Elemmírë · 01-25-2005, 03:24 PM

I agree with Blackheart here too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

You're missing the point. Completely. Men, Elves, and Valar are all subject to time - one second passes at the same speed for everyone, unless some sort of temporal distortion has occured (which it hasn't). If they did exist in an altered time rate, humans would move twice as fast as elves and ten times as fast as the valar (basically). That's just not the way it works.

I would have to wonder what the case is with places such as Lothlorien and Rivendell in the Third Age. Can you not claim that the Rings of Power themselves effected the passage of time... Especially Lothlorien. This is why Wayfarer's comment struck me. It almost seems (to me at least) that a temporal distortion has occurred. Frodo's comment, for example:

"In that land, maybe, we were in a time that has elsewhere long gone by."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

I forget exactly how it was explained about how time passed in Valinor in the Years of the Trees, but they went through cycles of 12 twelve hours, and one would wax ehile the other waned.

And yet a Valinorean year was equivalent to 10 years of the sun. I wonder if this was experienced as one or as ten...

I commented on Valinor earlier because I remembered reading something about the lifespans of other creatures in Valinor being longer (does someone know what I'm talking about, it's been a while...), which was part of the reason Men could not live there...

Blackheart · 01-25-2005, 04:12 PM

Well.. if you think about it, a man living in valinor would expereince the present just the same as he always did.
But if somehow his perception of time were changed (remember that bell curve) then it would seem to him that indeed his end came on swiftly... because he would have aquired an elvish perception of time.

Just the thing for a ring bearer weary of life....

Elemmírë · 01-25-2005, 08:28 PM

Yes. I personally do not see how one can feel anything but short-lived when everything around one remains relatively unchanged... And that probably works the opposite way as well, with the Eldar in ME. It all is perception, and like you've said before, Blackheart, that perception changes with the circumstances...

It kind of reminds me what SGH said earlier: "I don't think that the Elves even considered the passage of time until they met Men and especially when Men died. [...] So, the notice and effects of time came with Men to the Elves maybe."

Blackheart · 01-26-2005, 02:50 AM

Possibly. The "waning" of the elves starts when men awaken... But by then it's the second age... The elves are no longer "young"... not as a race. The swift days of the sun may have also contributed to the elves' sense of world weariness...

ethuiliel · 01-30-2005, 02:20 AM

I think that Elves and humans probably experience the present pretty much in the same way. An hour or two probably feels equally long to each. But the past and the future would be different. Ten years, a hundred years, a thousand years in the past or the future would seem much closer to an Elf than to a human.

Holbytla · 02-03-2005, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ethuiliel

I think that Elves and humans probably experience the present pretty much in the same way. An hour or two probably feels equally long to each. But the past and the future would be different. Ten years, a hundred years, a thousand years in the past or the future would seem much closer to an Elf than to a human.

Hmm, hope I get this " quote thingie" right..! Well, it seems ( to me anyway) that the past and the future is more present (!), than the - present? How able are we really to grasp the present, really? Don't we often make plans and ponder over things that have happened, and things that may happen than the actual moment? I wonder if Elves are the same? Or would the moment be more crucial to an immortal being? It may sound like a contradiction, since one would think that it is more important for a mortal to " live in the moment" so to speak.

Holbytla

Elemmírë · 02-04-2005, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holbytla

Hmm, hope I get this " quote thingie" right..! Well, it seems ( to me anyway) that the past and the future is more present (!), than the - present? How able are we really to grasp the present, really? Don't we often make plans and ponder over things that have happened, and things that may happen than the actual moment? I wonder if Elves are the same? Or would the moment be more crucial to an immortal being? It may sound like a contradiction, since one would think that it is more important for a mortal to " live in the moment" so to speak.

Holbytla

Well... you bring up some interesting points, Holbytla. The Elves are known to live (at least by the time the Third Age came around) more in the past than the present. Gimli, for example, notes that for Elves "memory is more like to the waking world than to a dream" (FOTR, Farewell to Lórien). I think that for the Elves, the past is more important than the present, hence the fading...

If one holds the belief that there really is no present (as I believe I do)... that there is simply past and future, and the point where they meet... then I suppose that perception of time would depend on how you see the past and the future... I wonder... But it's getting too late now and I'll have to think on this further.

ethuiliel · 02-04-2005, 08:21 PM

I think I worded what I said wrong. I didn't percisely mean the present but more the near past and future -- within a day, or at most a week.

Pytt · 02-04-2005, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Well... you bring up some interesting points, Holbytla. The Elves are known to live (at least by the time the Third Age came around) more in the past than the present. Gimli, for example, notes that for Elves "memory is more like to the waking world than to a dream" (FOTR, Farewell to Lórien). I think that for the Elves, the past is more important than the present, hence the fading...

If one holds the belief that there really is no present (as I believe I do)... that there is simply past and future, and the point where they meet... then I suppose that perception of time would depend on how you see the past and the future... I wonder... But it's getting too late now and I'll have to think on this further.

That is very filosofic. I have never really thought about how I see time. But I think I see time as you say. There is no real present, it is just future and past. But what is it when they meet? that ceartainly have to be present. Or... I have to think about this when I'm not so tired.

ethuiliel · 02-05-2005, 01:09 AM

There is a present, but it's only an instant long at a time. But sometimes you have to consider a longer span of time "the present" relative to other times, hundreds or thousands of years early or later... which is what I meant.

Elemmírë · 02-05-2005, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ethuiliel

There is a present, but it's only an instant long at a time. But sometimes you have to consider a longer span of time "the present" relative to other times, hundreds or thousands of years early or later... which is what I meant.

It's an interesting topic in general, but probably not to be argued in depth here. If you ever want to take it over to GM, I'd be happy to oblige.

Ethuiliel, I have to ask you, though, what exactly is an instant? It can't be the same as a second, because by the time you reach the second quarter of a second, the first is in the past and the rest is still in the future. And you could break it up even further.

Infinitesimally.

So... what exactly is time?

Blackheart · 02-11-2005, 05:53 PM

Time is the wrapper around the candy of the universe...

Don't bother to try and understand it or I'll explain it to you....

01-24-2005, 02:56 PM	#21
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	SGH is, I believe, right. The two trees waxed and waned according to the time-span of the sun & moon ... which WAS their direct 'descendent', so-to-speak. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

01-24-2005, 03:41 PM	#22
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	yeah, I have this chart of the exact amounts of time of the waxing and waneing, if I find it I'll post it up __________________ What was lost is now found.

01-24-2005, 05:48 PM	#23
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	uhh... you all know that time is relative right? The question is not whether 5 seconds on a hot stove is longer than 5 seconds kissing a pretty girl... It's whether 5 seconds on a hot stove is longer for an elf or a man... or whether 100 years in jail is longer for an elf than a man... Time is relative according to the observer. Since elves observe more time (total) than men, the extreme boundries will be compressed, but the present, the nearest observed events, will be about the same.... (think of time as an X axis, and lifespan as a y axis, put a reverse bell curve on it...) So 5 seconds, a day, a week, is probably perceived about the same. But years, decades, millenia... those are compressed, and experienced differently. Just how differently is a matter of speculation... __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

01-24-2005, 08:20 PM	#24
Embladyne Honourary Elitist Inklette Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: between the mountains and the sea Posts: 704	That bellcurve theory sounds pretty good. I'm gonna go think about it for a while... __________________ Even on the pinnacle of a palace a crow does not become an eagle. My DA page

01-25-2005, 04:12 PM	#26
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Well.. if you think about it, a man living in valinor would expereince the present just the same as he always did. But if somehow his perception of time were changed (remember that bell curve) then it would seem to him that indeed his end came on swiftly... because he would have aquired an elvish perception of time. Just the thing for a ring bearer weary of life.... __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

01-25-2005, 08:28 PM	#27
Elemmírë avocatus diaboli Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Himring Posts: 1,582	Yes. I personally do not see how one can feel anything but short-lived when everything around one remains relatively unchanged... And that probably works the opposite way as well, with the Eldar in ME. It all is perception, and like you've said before, Blackheart, that perception changes with the circumstances... It kind of reminds me what SGH said earlier: "I don't think that the Elves even considered the passage of time until they met Men and especially when Men died. [...] So, the notice and effects of time came with Men to the Elves maybe." __________________ ~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~ Neil Gaiman

01-26-2005, 02:50 AM	#28
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Possibly. The "waning" of the elves starts when men awaken... But by then it's the second age... The elves are no longer "young"... not as a race. The swift days of the sun may have also contributed to the elves' sense of world weariness... __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

01-30-2005, 02:20 AM	#29
ethuiliel Elf Lord Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: USA until I find a way to get to Middle Earth Posts: 681	I think that Elves and humans probably experience the present pretty much in the same way. An hour or two probably feels equally long to each. But the past and the future would be different. Ten years, a hundred years, a thousand years in the past or the future would seem much closer to an Elf than to a human. __________________ "...but I love not the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Numenor." "'I would,' said Faramir. And he took her in his arms and kissed her under the sunlit sky, and he cared not that they stood high upon the walls in the sight of many. And many indeed saw them and the light that shone about them as they came down from the walls and went hand in hand to the Houses of Healing."

02-04-2005, 08:21 PM	#32
ethuiliel Elf Lord Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: USA until I find a way to get to Middle Earth Posts: 681	I think I worded what I said wrong. I didn't percisely mean the present but more the near past and future -- within a day, or at most a week. __________________ "...but I love not the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Numenor." "'I would,' said Faramir. And he took her in his arms and kissed her under the sunlit sky, and he cared not that they stood high upon the walls in the sight of many. And many indeed saw them and the light that shone about them as they came down from the walls and went hand in hand to the Houses of Healing."

02-05-2005, 01:09 AM	#34
ethuiliel Elf Lord Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: USA until I find a way to get to Middle Earth Posts: 681	There is a present, but it's only an instant long at a time. But sometimes you have to consider a longer span of time "the present" relative to other times, hundreds or thousands of years early or later... which is what I meant. __________________ "...but I love not the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Numenor." "'I would,' said Faramir. And he took her in his arms and kissed her under the sunlit sky, and he cared not that they stood high upon the walls in the sight of many. And many indeed saw them and the light that shone about them as they came down from the walls and went hand in hand to the Houses of Healing."

02-11-2005, 05:53 PM	#36
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Time is the wrapper around the candy of the universe... Don't bother to try and understand it or I'll explain it to you.... __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

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