LoTR Discussion Project: Bk II Chap. 3: The Ring Goes South - Page 2

Lefty Scaevola · 01-14-2005, 02:33 PM

I do not think the red star was Earendil. Earendil's is identified with Venus, which is whitish, and the light from Galadriel's phial is whitish, and the light of the star is to match that of the simaril, which is a mixture of white and gold.
The omen of a 'red star on the horizon' is obvious to any with exposure to Mediteranean mythologies and sybolism: "War is comming".

Gordis · 03-22-2005, 05:55 PM

A question that has always puzzled me: Who caused the snowstorm at Caradhras?
The members of the fellowship discussed the issue in LOTR, but never came to a definite answer.

There are several possible suspects:

1. It was the ill will of Caradhras itself (Gimli and Aragorn seemed to favor this explanation)

2. Saruman.
Saruman was a maia, therefore seemingly had the necessary power to meddle with the weather. He knew exactly of the fellowship position (from crebain) and probably guessed that they were on the way to Mordor carrying the Ring (and not just carrying the Ring to Lorien). It was vital to him to turn the fellowship's path to the gap of Rohan where they would be at his mercy.
But Saruman was far away from Caradhras. Could he act at such a long distance?

3. Sauron
Sauron might have known of the fellowship leaving Imladris and, if so, must have thought that Elrond had decided to surrender the Ring to his mother in law, Galadriel. As we know, he never suspected the fellowship's ultimate goal. He was interested to prevent the Ring falling into Galadriel's hands, because with the Ring she might have overthrown him.
According to Boromir Sauron was known to cause storms in the Mountains of Shadow. But certainly it is a very great distance from Barad Dur to Caradhras. And he must have considered that closing the Redhorn Pass will force the Fellowship to take one of the other possible roots: either through Moria (risk of the Barlog getting the Ring), or through the gap of Rohan (risk of the Ring falling into Saruman's hands). Barlog was not in league with Sauron (see the tread on the subject). As for Saruman, by December 3018 Sauron knew of Saruman's treachery from the Witch-King's report at least (See "The hunt for the Ring" in UT). Therefore Sauron (if it was he who caused the storm) was facing a difficult choice but must have preferred the Barlog or Saruman as opponents to Galadriel.

4. The Barlog. Well... he was also a maia. Perhaps he was able to cause storms. He lived in the neighborhood. He was interested to force the fellowship into Moria to dispose of them there. But there is no indication that he knew anything about the fellowship or about the Ring before he felt their presence in his home (or before he got knocked on the head by Pippin's stone).

5. The Witch-King of Angmar. He might have been the nazgul that has flown over the Fellowship while they were hiking towards the Redhorn Pass. Frodo and Gandalf saw a dark shadow overhead and felt a chill. It was most probably a nazgul on the fell beast. The WK might have been returning from a spying mission to Rivendell borders or he might have been collecting some of the weaker Ringwraiths still lagging shapeless and miserable in Eriador after the disaster at the Ford. If so, the WK could have spotted the fellowship (seeing very clearly through the fell beast's eyes + at night his other senses were enhanced). Very probably he also felt the Ring's presence. He was the most capable of the nine to feel the presence of the Ring, remember he felt it from far away when Frodo and Sam were passing near Minas Morgul. The WK was known to cause snowstorms in the North during his reign in Angmar. And in winter his power was growing (See LOTR Appendices). So the WK might have landed his fell beast right atop Caradhras and made the storm in real time mode. As for his motives, he probably did not relish the idea of having to bow to a woman, so he was not going to let the Ring into Galadriel's hands. But he should have considered that if the Barlog got the Ring, Sauron would post probably send poor nazguls to get it from the Barlog... Not a nice prospect either.

6. Other (Galadriel, Elrond) But why would they?

Any ideas?

Butterbeer · 03-23-2005, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Oh, I always thought that the red star was some symbol of Mordor - I need to re-read that section ...

Same here - think possibly the star of Earendil is probably right - never thought of that! Mind you the star is red like the baleful eye- i'll have to read it too (wont have time if someone could copy that passage over?)

Butterbeer · 03-23-2005, 06:04 AM

[QUOTE=gordis]

4. The Barlog. Well... he was also a maia. Perhaps he was able to cause storms. He lived in the neighborhood. He was interested to force the fellowship into Moria to dispose of them there. But there is no indication that he knew anything about the fellowship or about the Ring before he felt their presence in his home (or before he got knocked on the head by Pippin's stone).

Thats really funny - some one should do a cartoon of that - i can just see the suprised expression on his face

Pippin: of all the wells in all the world a balrog of Morgoth no less had to be sitting right under that one! (tried hard to work in Play it agin sam but couldn't)

CrazySquirrel · 04-07-2005, 11:44 AM

Interesting question, GORDIS, ABOUT cARADHRAS storm.
Perhaps it was ol'Barrie the Barlog. I like the picture of the Barlog putting a pot on a fire and waiting for guests

But I also like the Witch-King idea. Must have had a lot of fun sitting atop caradhras and throwing stones down.

***Valandil*** · 04-27-2005, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

:
:
:
(There is an exchange of proverbs between Elrond and Gimli--not central to the story, but always attracts my attention.)
:
:

Just a wild and crazy thought here.

I guess my main impression is just that of one who has seen so MANY years (Elrond) that he feels allowances must be made for individuals to do as they would - versus someone who sees this situation in clear terms of 'black and white' (Gimli) - much younger than Elrond, though still quite aged by human standards - yet a dwarf, and they can be expected to be different.

However - a thought just crossed my mind. Does Elrond have something he has done that he is trying to justify or rationalize to himself? Might he have been guilty of something that someone would consider 'faithless'?

I can't really think of anything offhand - I know Olmer certainly has an opinion about that though - but I'm trying to think if there's anything else that we know in a more documented manner where Elrond might feel he would not measure up to the standard of faithfulness that Gimli is setting before him. Even something in the First or Second Age...

Really though - I guess it just serves to put before each member of the Fellowship - and the reader - the different ways that a member of the Fellowship might be taking on his 'charge'.

Olmer · 04-28-2005, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valandil

I'm trying to think if there's anything else that we know in a more documented manner where Elrond might feel he would not measure up to the standard of faithfulness that Gimli is setting before him. Even something in the First or Second Age....

Actually Wayfarer already mentioned that Elrond might be remembering the poor example of the oath of Feanor's brothers. I really like his explanation.

Quote:

Elrond tells Gimli: 'One should not vow to walk in darkness, who has not seen nightfall.'

Why did Elrond say this? Well, one interesting piece of information that most people miss is that Elrond and Elros were raised by Maedhros after Elendil and Elwing left middle earth. Elrond got a good first-hand look at how a foolishly sworn oath destroyed some of the most noble elves ever to walk in Middle Earth. In fact, he may have recieved this same advice when he was young, from the Sons of Feanor who had sworn an oath they wished they could go back on.

Gordis · 04-29-2005, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valandil

However - a thought just crossed my mind. Does Elrond have something he has done that he is trying to justify or rationalize to himself? Might he have been guilty of something that someone would consider 'faithless'?

I can't really think of anything offhand - I know Olmer certainly has an opinion about that though - but I'm trying to think if there's anything else that we know in a more documented manner where Elrond might feel he would not measure up to the standard of faithfulness that Gimli is setting before him. Even something in the First or Second Age...

Well Olmer is certainly right about Elrond referring to the oath of Feanor's sons.
On the other hand, I believe that Elrond is the most decent Elf (well, halfelven) there is in ME. Ho IMHO he feels guilty about all this business with the Rings. Elves devised them in the first place, elves had not the courage to destroy the Rings after they understood Sauron's treachery, and now he has to send hobbits and a dwarf and men on a perilous quest to save the world endangered by the Elves.

Olmer · 04-30-2005, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gordis

I believe that Elrond is the most decent Elf (well, halfelven) there is in ME. Ho IMHO he feels guilty about all this business with the Rings. Elves devised them in the first place, elves had not the courage to destroy the Rings after they understood Sauron's treachery, and now he has to send hobbits and a dwarf and men on a perilous quest to save the world endangered by the Elves.

Heh-heh...talking about decency... he feels guilty, but nevertheless he sends poor, honest, trusting in his words and naive hobbit instead of sending Glorfindel or unertaking this burden by himself.

By the way, Gandalf and Elrond knew from the beginning that Frodo wouldn't be able to destroy the Ring, unless somebody would "make" him "by force, which would break... (his) mind".
So, what was all this business about pretense to save the world?

Lefty Scaevola · 06-30-2005, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gordis

A question that has always puzzled me: Who caused the snowstorm at Caradhras?1. It was the ill will of Caradhras itself (Gimli and Aragorn seemed to favor this explanation)
Any ideas?

The work of building arba, inclduing the mountains was mostly that of a multitude of Maiar under the direction of the Valar. In the published work, there are many instanes of the Valar and Mair getting cuagt up with and overly enamored with their work, work which is created in part but expenditure of bit of the ehir life enegry/existance, which is put into that which is created. (see particularly the HoME discussion of Melkor/Morgoth 'element' with in the marred sustance of Arda. I suspect it very likely htat some of the Maiar put all of their remaining selves, inclduign their conciousness into part of Arda. And the the remaining spirt of one may inhabit the moutain, and provides its will.

01-14-2005, 02:33 PM	#21
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	I do not think the red star was Earendil. Earendil's is identified with Venus, which is whitish, and the light from Galadriel's phial is whitish, and the light of the star is to match that of the simaril, which is a mixture of white and gold. The omen of a 'red star on the horizon' is obvious to any with exposure to Mediteranean mythologies and sybolism: "War is comming". __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"

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03-22-2005, 05:55 PM	#22
Gordis Lady of the Ulairi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 2,783	A question that has always puzzled me: Who caused the snowstorm at Caradhras? The members of the fellowship discussed the issue in LOTR, but never came to a definite answer. There are several possible suspects: 1. It was the ill will of Caradhras itself (Gimli and Aragorn seemed to favor this explanation) 2. Saruman. Saruman was a maia, therefore seemingly had the necessary power to meddle with the weather. He knew exactly of the fellowship position (from crebain) and probably guessed that they were on the way to Mordor carrying the Ring (and not just carrying the Ring to Lorien). It was vital to him to turn the fellowship's path to the gap of Rohan where they would be at his mercy. But Saruman was far away from Caradhras. Could he act at such a long distance? 3. Sauron Sauron might have known of the fellowship leaving Imladris and, if so, must have thought that Elrond had decided to surrender the Ring to his mother in law, Galadriel. As we know, he never suspected the fellowship's ultimate goal. He was interested to prevent the Ring falling into Galadriel's hands, because with the Ring she might have overthrown him. According to Boromir Sauron was known to cause storms in the Mountains of Shadow. But certainly it is a very great distance from Barad Dur to Caradhras. And he must have considered that closing the Redhorn Pass will force the Fellowship to take one of the other possible roots: either through Moria (risk of the Barlog getting the Ring), or through the gap of Rohan (risk of the Ring falling into Saruman's hands). Barlog was not in league with Sauron (see the tread on the subject). As for Saruman, by December 3018 Sauron knew of Saruman's treachery from the Witch-King's report at least (See "The hunt for the Ring" in UT). Therefore Sauron (if it was he who caused the storm) was facing a difficult choice but must have preferred the Barlog or Saruman as opponents to Galadriel. 4. The Barlog. Well... he was also a maia. Perhaps he was able to cause storms. He lived in the neighborhood. He was interested to force the fellowship into Moria to dispose of them there. But there is no indication that he knew anything about the fellowship or about the Ring before he felt their presence in his home (or before he got knocked on the head by Pippin's stone). 5. The Witch-King of Angmar. He might have been the nazgul that has flown over the Fellowship while they were hiking towards the Redhorn Pass. Frodo and Gandalf saw a dark shadow overhead and felt a chill. It was most probably a nazgul on the fell beast. The WK might have been returning from a spying mission to Rivendell borders or he might have been collecting some of the weaker Ringwraiths still lagging shapeless and miserable in Eriador after the disaster at the Ford. If so, the WK could have spotted the fellowship (seeing very clearly through the fell beast's eyes + at night his other senses were enhanced). Very probably he also felt the Ring's presence. He was the most capable of the nine to feel the presence of the Ring, remember he felt it from far away when Frodo and Sam were passing near Minas Morgul. The WK was known to cause snowstorms in the North during his reign in Angmar. And in winter his power was growing (See LOTR Appendices). So the WK might have landed his fell beast right atop Caradhras and made the storm in real time mode. As for his motives, he probably did not relish the idea of having to bow to a woman, so he was not going to let the Ring into Galadriel's hands. But he should have considered that if the Barlog got the Ring, Sauron would post probably send poor nazguls to get it from the Barlog... Not a nice prospect either. 6. Other (Galadriel, Elrond) But why would they? Any ideas?

03-23-2005, 06:04 AM	#24
Butterbeer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: here and there Posts: 3,514	[QUOTE=gordis] 4. The Barlog. Well... he was also a maia. Perhaps he was able to cause storms. He lived in the neighborhood. He was interested to force the fellowship into Moria to dispose of them there. But there is no indication that he knew anything about the fellowship or about the Ring before he felt their presence in his home (or before he got knocked on the head by Pippin's stone). Thats really funny - some one should do a cartoon of that - i can just see the suprised expression on his face Pippin: of all the wells in all the world a balrog of Morgoth no less had to be sitting right under that one! (tried hard to work in Play it agin sam but couldn't)

04-07-2005, 11:44 AM	#25
CrazySquirrel Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 796	Interesting question, GORDIS, ABOUT cARADHRAS storm. Perhaps it was ol'Barrie the Barlog. I like the picture of the Barlog putting a pot on a fire and waiting for guests But I also like the Witch-King idea. Must have had a lot of fun sitting atop caradhras and throwing stones down.