Free will vs. destiny

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Gandalf could not know that the destruction of the Ring was predetermined. He may have hoped so, but he could not be sure. Eru did not reveal his plans to anyone.

What you seem to be saying here is that Gandalf knows that something is predetermined, although he doesn't know what. (At least, I think this is what you were saying ). If this is the case, then it wouldn't matter how he or others acted as the outcome would be the same regardless.

What I am trying to say is that Gandalf knew there were possibilities not conclusions, and if people could be helped to make the right choices then, and only then, would the "predetermined" event occur - whatever that might be!!

[Shelob's Hubby]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

One problem with that theory, Eru didn't send Gandalf, Manwe at the suggestion of Varda did. He was sent as one of the five Istari to battle the force of the one ring.

I understand that, but he is still under Eru's banner. So to speak. That's why I said he was sent indirectly.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Elanor the Fair

No, but he would know that something would be predetermined - so why bother worrying if there was no chance of having some control over your own destiny?

I don't think Gandalf thought of anything as predetermined, just that the Will of Eru was involved, at least that is how I interpret the "you were meant to have it" speech. Good post, Forkbeard.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Elanor the Fair

I agree with you, Forkbeard, although I do not think that the destroying of the Ring was a foregone conclusion. Why else would Gandalf worry about the choices and decisions being made. He would just sit back and let "fate" run its course.

I agee. If he thought that Sauron's fall was predetermined why send the letter to Frodo urging him to leave the Shire ASAP.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Elrond had, as many elves did, the ability of foresight! Therefore it must be understood that if the children of Iluvitar had the ability to see the future, then surely most of the Maia could and without question the Valar could! Now seeing the future as a vision is something different than the actuality of a free will world. When Elrond views the hopelessness of Arwen staying in Middle-Earth he is seeing the most likely future, the future as seen if one choice is made by Aragorn. There are many choices that can alter what is to be. Take for example the phrase "you were destined to do" as in Aragorn was destined to become the King of Gondor and Arnor! Now, this may have been the destiny of Aragorn and Middle-Erth but it was the choices of Aragorn, and many others as well, that inevitably lead to the predetermind action in time! The choices could have gone as such to make Aragorn king of Gondor, Arnor, and all of Middle-Earth if he had taken the one ring! It is all about free-will and Destiny. Which as I said before is the best Tolkien could do being bound by his own beliefs. I believe I just read something that agrees with my last statement in the begging of Silmarillion, writen by Tolkien himself.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think the elves knew that Sauron would fall but they didn't know when or how, which is why they were doing as much as possible to make that then.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

What I don't understand is that they didn't do all they could to help or stop Sauron. They were leaving when they should have been fighting! What did the elves have to loose!? They were immortal, if they were killed in battle, they go to Valinor! To the halls of Mandos yes, but still to valinor... where they could still one day be removed from the Halls of mandos as well! Why not use all you got to destroy this common enemy, then the survivers flee to Valinor!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

They knew that they were going to leave and that men would inherit Middle-earth, so the men obviously needed to pove their woth. If the men had been defeated then I'm sure that the elves would fight but if the men were going to inherit it the needed to be the ones that saved it.

[Haradrim]

I agree with T.D. if the elves interfered it would have been like if a teen was on his quest for adulthood in an ancient tribe of sorts and the parent intervened it would throw off the entire quest and make the teen forever a boy. SO the elves could not interfere unless it was absolutely necessary. Also men are cooler..... Nah! hehehe JK!

[The Gaffer]

I don't agree that the Elves did nothing. Remember Gandalf's words to Boromir in the Council of Elrond, about how Sauron was resisted by other means than the strength of men. Essentially, he is saying that the Three Rings were still active in keeping back the tide.

The other thing to bear in mind is that the Elves had been hanging around for ?5,000 years since they were pardoned for Feanor's rebellion and allowed to return to Valinor. It would seem to make sense that in that time there would be a steady trickle of elves packing up and heading back home, not to mention a fair few Sindar hearing those seagulls...

Also, we don't know how many Elves there actually were. Many were killed in the Dagorlad at the end of the 2nd Age. The only one we know of who came back to ME after dying was Glorfindel. So, their numbers would be vastly depleted.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I didn't say the elves did nothing, i said that they knew that the men had to fight this war as they would be ruling the bigger part of ME. If they had been defeated then the elves would have also attacked Sauron's forces.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I would like to actually disagree with myself a little. I said the elves did not help the men of ME and this is somehat true. However the elves did fight Sauron's forces and held them off. It is stated, im not sure where, that Galadriel and the forces of Lorien fought off the forces of mordor thrice before the end. So although elves did not help directly, they did fight.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Thought someone would make that point! The elves of Lorien and Mirkwood defended their own lands, they didn't attack Sauron's forces. Men did. Erkenbrand's men at Helms Deep. The Rohirrim at the Pelennor. The Rohirrim and Gondorians at the Black Gate. The elves may have slightly aided, but it was men would led the assault

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Thought someone would make that point! The elves of Lorien and Mirkwood defended their own lands, they didn't attack Sauron's forces. Men did. Erkenbrand's men at Helms Deep. The Rohirrim at the Pelennor. The Rohirrim and Gondorians at the Black Gate. The elves may have slightly aided, but it was men would led the assault

To some degree, yes. But it is Celeborn and Thranduil who for example meet in Mirkwood and cleanse Dol Guldur.

And I would also say that given Sauron's plan, the Elves staying and protecting their own lands was exactly right: Sauron divided his forces and fought on too many fronts instead of the crushing blow on Gondor first, then pick off the others piece by piece.

FB

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I'm notsure but I think the forces of Dol Guldur had been slain in their assaults and when Celeborn and Thranduil met in Mirkwood, no fighting was needed.

[Earniel]

The posts concerning the discussion whether the Elves were allies to Gondor are moved to a new thread: Were the Elves allies to Gondor?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

the creation of the dwarves was not destined by eru, yet he took aule's
creations and gave them a place within arda, so what i am trying to say
here (in a round-a-bout way) is that free will is the course of things, but
that does not mean that eru will not have a destined place for them in
the long run. if you understand me, which i don't!!

[Wayfarer]

*eyeshift*

[Wayfarer]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

...free will is the course of things...

So, in effect, what you're saying is...

"You must have free will! It is your destiny!"

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Am I seeing double or did that post appear twice!