Glorfindel's Prophecy

[The Gaffer]

Naw, #3 is not a prediction, it's an act of looking forward.

Not from dictionary.com:

Pedantry: relentless quotation of dictionary definitions in the pursuit of semantic circles

Just joking.

I think foresight is a better description of whatever it was.

The same would go for Galadriel's mirror. If some things may only come to pass if you do stuff to influence their chances of coming to pass, then they're not prophesies, they're just statements of things that might happen. To my mind, a prophesy is something that you can't influence.

I'm not sure whether Glorfindel was in a position to understand what his foresight (or prophesy) meant. But there is lots of this in LOTR (e.g. Paths of the Dead, Frodo's curse on Gollum, Dain's prediction re: Durin's Bane); what other examples can you think of? What do they imply about foreknowledge in LOTR?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Gandalf saying that Gollum would probably influence the quest in some way.

[Attalus]

I still say that being "foresighted" in Tolkien's world means to prophecy. To my mind the best example is Aragorn's "Did I not say to you, Éomer, that we should meet again, though the hosts of Mordor stood between us?" Even Éomer had to admit that he was "a man foresighted." And was that not a prophecy?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Maybe it was and I didn't say that foresight and prophecy could be the same thing. I said that in the case of Galadriel's Mirror it did not reveal prophercies.

[Attalus]

How about Sam seeing himself in that tower stair? Wasn't that a foresight or prophecy of Cirith Ungol?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Foresight. If Frodo or Sam hadn't gone East it wouldn't have happened. Prophecies would happen beyond doubt, just because it's course wasn't changed doesn't change it from foresight to prophecy.

[Attalus]

I disagree. They were doomed to do it, just as Eru intended. Just because they had free will doesn't mean that the result was not clear to Him. And we have spiritual authority that there are such things as false prophets, so a prophecy could only be regarded as true after the fact. There is no satisfactory division between the two.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Just because it was true it doesn't instantly change it from foresight to prophecy.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Just because it was true it doesn't instantly change it from foresight to prophecy.

But is it was false, would it be prophecy at all?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It wasn't a prophecy anyway it was foresight.

[Haradrim]

I think Glorfindel's Prophecy was infact foresight. He saw what would happen and then he created a prophecy for it which was misinterpreted by man y inluding the Witch King.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Just read in Appendix A that by man it meant male human so both Eowyn or Merry could have killed him.

[Olmer]

"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"

The Witch King actually says that NOBODY can stop him, not kill him. Just it, and nothing else. As a most powerful of Sauron's servants he believed in his invincibility, and he has wery right to do so. He just broke the inpenetratable Gate of Minas-Tirith and sneered at at barring his way Gandalf.
He knew, that he already has a huge advantage by ability to instill unreasoning fear in his opponent. He assumed that on the battle-field he is facing a Man (who else?), so he adressed accordingly. And his words is not about gender, or even race at all. He heard or mentioned NOTHING about the profecy.
I think that the Ringwraith proud boasting had nothing to do with some elf's prophecy, who was just telling to Earnur of his foreseeing who will eventually bring the Witch King down and nothing else.
Sorry, Valandil, this time nobody were 'scaffolding' behind the scenes.
Just fate.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

So you think that the WK didn't know about the prophecy.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Olmer

The Witch King actually says that NOBODY can stop him, not kill him. Just it, and nothing else. As a most powerful of Sauron's servants he believed in his invincibility, and he has wery right to do so. He just broke the inpenetratable Gate of Minas-Tirith and sneered at at barring his way Gandalf.
He knew, that he already has a huge advantage by ability to instill unreasoning fear in his opponent. He assumed that on the battle-field he is facing a Man (who else?), so he adressed accordingly. And his words is not about gender, or even race at all. He heard or mentioned NOTHING about the profecy.
I think that the Ringwraith proud boasting had nothing to do with some elf's prophecy, who was just telling to Earnur of his foreseeing who will eventually bring the Witch King down and nothing else.
Sorry, Valandil, this time nobody were 'scaffolding' behind the scenes.
Just fate.

Olmer - I just checked... that part of Glorfindel's prophecy is recorded as: "... and not by the hand of man will he fall."

To me, that sounds similar enough to the W-K's statement to Eowyn / Dernhelm: "No living man may hinder me!"

ESPECIALLY because of the impact Eowyn's response had on the W-K. When she says, "But no living man am I! You look upon a woman..." - it causes the W-K to DOUBT! He had no doubts before, but suddenly had to face it, wondering if the prophecy he knew (and in which his confidence was further grounded) had a loophole in it. He would not have suddenly doubted himself after Eowyn's revelation - if he had not known the prophecy.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Just read in Appendix A that by man it meant male human so both Eowyn or Merry could have killed him.

Gimme a quote and citation. I don't believe it, sorry.

[Haradrim]

thanks Valandil for the no living man may hinder me. I was looking for a quote and couldnt find one. But does that mean the dead men of dunharrow could kill him. Also I agree about the doubt. It makes it obvious that he had heard of the prophecy. Also what were Glorfindels exact word as that may help the issue.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Olmer - I just checked... that part of Glorfindel's prophecy is recorded as: "... and not by the hand of man will he fall."
To me, that sounds similar enough to the W-K's statement to Eowyn / Dernhelm: "No living man may hinder me!"

Glorfindel was not Eru, he was not even Maia, and an ability to change the course of events or to make some things happen in distant future was way out of his league. By his foretelling he did not set up the future outcome, he just made a presumtion based on vague vision of the event yet to come.
If somebody predicted that John (for example) woun't die by the hand of man, it doesn't mean that he can't be killed in an accident caused by man. Everything is relative.
Therefore, "to hinder", which means to hold back, is not equal "to fall", to go down, and quite incongruent with "to kill", to eliminate.
In this way I don't see in the Nazgul's words any relation to the prophecy.

Your "doubt" reason is valid to some extend.
The exact words is : ...the Ringwraith made no answer, and was silent, AS IF in sudden doubt
"AS IF" is telling me that it couldn't be a doubt over his fate, but just a hesitation in doubt and malice intent over decision of what to do with this stupid, insistent woman before him.
Any way, it's nowhere said that his doubt was based on Glorfindel's prophecy.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Olmer - I just checked... that part of Glorfindel's prophecy is recorded as: "... and not by the hand of man will he fall."

To me, that sounds similar enough to the W-K's statement to Eowyn / Dernhelm: "No living man may hinder me!"

ESPECIALLY because of the impact Eowyn's response had on the W-K. When she says, "But no living man am I! You look upon a woman..." - it causes the W-K to DOUBT! He had no doubts before, but suddenly had to face it, wondering if the prophecy he knew (and in which his confidence was further grounded) had a loophole in it. He would not have suddenly doubted himself after Eowyn's revelation - if he had not known the prophecy.

And also, I have no problem with the idea that the WK would embellish a bit (changing it to "hinder"), both in pride and also with the intent to deceive and intimidate, if he could get away with it.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Olmer

...Any way, it's nowhere said that his doubt was based on Glorfindel's prophecy.

No - it isn't explicitly stated... you just have to kind of read between the lines and figure it out!