Did Sauron imprison the Moria Balrog?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

So Barlogs can be pretty intelligent. And the fact that the Barlog didn't choose to come and serve Sauron, only shows some free-thinking and independance.

Add also the fact that he could utter some pretty powerful counterspells, against which even such tough maia-Gandalf had a hard time to stand up.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Add also the fact that he could utter some pretty powerful counterspells, against which even such tough maia-Gandalf had a hard time to stand up.

Yes, sure.

I have an impression that various Maiar had quite different levels of power.

The late Gothmog Lord of the Barlogs, was probably on the same level with Sauron and Melian. Other barlogs and Turingwethil were weaker. and so on. Then the power of each maia varied with time, growing or ebbong.

The Moria Barlog was roughly on the same level with Gandalf the Gray, (before his upgrade .

[The Gaffer]

OK, good points.

Remembering of course that the Istari sacrificed much of their power when they came to Middle-Earth. Also that when Gothmog was around, so was Morgoth. When Morgoth was cast out, the remaining balrogs ran and hid for millenia and seemed to lose their ambition.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

First of all, you guys come up with some really great ideas and theories. I've enjoyed reading every one of them. Thanks.

I haven't read the Sil but I have picked up on some things reading through the great threads here. Maybe the balrog was waiting to see what happened with Sauron and the Ring. If he had survived his confrontation with Gandolf and found out later that the ring had been destroyed he might emerge as the new Dark Lord and find an army of his own. Probably a far-fetched theory, just throwing it out there.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

Maybe the balrog was waiting to see what happened with Sauron and the Ring. If he had survived his confrontation with Gandolf and found out later that the ring had been destroyed he might emerge as the new Dark Lord and find an army of his own. Probably a far-fetched theory, just throwing it out there.

I don’t think it is too far-fetched Farimir. Actually, I considered something similar to this, but the idea I came up with was a little to “conspiracy-ish” for my tastes. Your idea is simpler (and better). Just a few years later (for an immortal) Sauron and Saruman were gone, most of the Elves (and Gandalf) had left for Valinor, and the remaining Numenoreans were quickly becoming like other Men. The Balrog could have been a great force among the remaining people of Middle Earth. I don’t think we should assume the Balrog couldn’t see this possibility. It was a Maia after all. Nice idea, Farimir. I’m not saying that I necessarily think it’s right, but it is an interesting possibility.

[Gordis]

Definitely an interesting possibility, Faramir!

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

Maybe the balrog was waiting to see what happened with Sauron and the Ring.

It IS a possibility,Farimir
After all he was one of the Dark Maiar spirits on the same subordination level as Sauron. I mean that Balrog would be answerable only to somebody as mighty as Vala Melkor, anybody lesser like Sau...who cares what games is he playing! He didn't give a damn about a any wanderers in vast Moria tunnels, he would wait over Sauron or any other mighty Lord,as long, as they won't bother him in his nice cozy dwelling.

I agree with Eärniel that Balrog dwelled in substratum of the mountains for a quite long time. And the only reason he came out was the Rings of Power.
In other thread Gordis gave a good argumentation to support the idea that ALL Rings of Power had a "pull" on a prospective possessor in accordance with the measure of his power .
Now, since all information in the book considered Durin's folk and nowhere has been mentioned to whom exactly Sauron gave the 7 Great Rings, one could assume , that Sauron main interest was in the fabulously rich and strategically located Moria, and all seven rings have been given to the leaders of Durin's folk. All this rings began to "pump out" the magic energy, and that enormous pull made Balrog uncomfortable and forced him to go and seek for the source of nagging symptoms.

[Butterbeer]

Well there are balrogs and balrogs to my mind ... like every other in middle earth you had the individual leaders and the others etc .... but bear in mind we are comparing them to the elite of Miar and of all those, Melkor and in later ages Sauron ...

in this repsect, as first posited, barring the best of the best, the analogy that they are effecively, in number or essence, as opposed to individuals, dogs of war, clearly stands.

best, BB

[Butterbeer]

Just to clarify ... do we compare ALL men with Aragorn or Elendil or say, Beorn?

Do we compare ALL elves with Glorfindel or Feanor?

All dwarves with Durin or even Thorin?

Gandalf with the blue wizards or Sauron with others of his ilk?

Of course not, it is clearly nonsensical.

Thus arguments on gothmog and the third age balrog in Moria need to be viewed, to my mind, as such.

best, BB

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Yes, sure.

I have an impression that various Maiar had quite different levels of power.

The late Gothmog Lord of the Barlogs, was probably on the same level with Sauron and Melian. Other barlogs and Turingwethil were weaker. and so on. Then the power of each maia varied with time, growing or ebbong.

The Moria Barlog was roughly on the same level with Gandalf the Gray, (before his upgrade .

I think that this is a very inaccurate statement. The Valaroukar where maia of much less power and majesty than maia like melain and sauron. Yet, maia they remained, thus in their roles as balrogs they where effective as the terror of the children of eru.

Certainly Sauron could not be killed by a helmet point threw his chest, not the same sauron who whose body was destroyed more than once. They were terrifying beings, but the lowest of their order.

Even the balrog in the movie was very much over done, they were not that big and powerful; Feanor fought with five of those things at once, and gothmog himself was there.

[jammi567]

This may be a little off topic, but i'm surprised no-one's asked it before. How did the balrog hide in the first place? Afterall, it's hiding in the most popular dwarvan city, greatly boosted by dwarfs from Belegost and Nogrod. Surely someone would've noticed a thing like that.

[Curubethion]

He was buried too deep for anyone to notice, up until Balin's time. Then, the dwarves "delved too greedily and too deep", and accidentally broke into the Balrog's prison/lair thingy. And then he woke up...I'd hate to be one of the dwarves that was mining that day!

[jammi567]

I know that, but how did he get in in the first place, without anyone noticing?

[The Telcontarion]

Well he was there for thousands of years, and given the fact that middle-earth always changed especially after the great battle that destroyed beleriad, I would say he was fleeing the hosts of the valar, going as far an as deep as he can through fear; such a calamity would have to have instilled much fear in the balrog.

Going deeper and deeper I imagine he found some deep dark cavern to hide himself in and hibernate until the time was right and safe for it to reveal itself again. While hibernating the cavern caved in, and trapping it - it had no choice then but to stay in suspended animation until an appropiate time, enter here, the miners of Moria.

Originally Posted by jammi567

I know that, but how did he get in in the first place, without anyone noticing?

No one had to notice him, it's not like he came through the front gate of moria. The caverns and dungeons of Morgoth's realm where very deep and expansive, as was the mines of moria. Not to mention the the natural underground caverns and caves. The Balrog simply kept going deep and far, appearantly reaching a point that was close enough to the mines of moria that they delved even deep in enough to reveal the hiding place of the valarouka, though he was exceedingly deep underground.

[jammi567]

I didn't think of it that way before, so thanks for answering the question.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

I would say he was fleeing the hosts of the valar, going as far an as deep as he can through fear; such a calamity would have to have instilled much fear in the balrog.

Going deeper and deeper I imagine he found some deep dark cavern to hide himself in and hibernate until the time was right and safe for it to reveal itself again. While hibernating the cavern caved in, and trapping it - it had no choice then but to stay in suspended animation until an appropiate time, enter here, the miners of Moria.

I agree:

Originally Posted by Durin's folk, RotK

Thus they roused from sleep [Or released from prison; it may well be that it had already been awakened by the malice of Sauron.] a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth.