Tragedy in Spain

[cassiopeia]

My sympathies to all who are affected by these murders; for that's what this tragedy is: cowardly murders of innocent people.

[azalea]

Nothing new to add, except for my feeling of horror at this, reading the first-hand accounts in the paper. It was uplifting, though, to see all of the citizens gather in the rain in support of the victims' families, and in a show of solidarity against the terrorists, whoever they might be. I'm glad your family didn't experience any loss, FM.

[gimli7410]

i saw some pictures of it, just horrible my thougths are with you

[Earniel]

My sympathies to all the people of Spain who have to live through this horrible tragedy. All European and Belgian flags on government buildings in Belgium hang half-mast in silent respect to the victims.

[Fat middle]

I want to thank to all the people (and countries) that have expressed their repulse to the attack.

Now that it seems more clear that the authorship of this attack may be related with a maroccian cell of Al-Qaeda, the political partys are begining to fight each other (as usual) because everybody believes this is a consequence of our participation in the Iraq war.

Although that, of course, may be true, I don't think that's the point to discuss.

Anyway, it was relly good to know that about 12 million people were in the demonstrations of last Friday. That's more than 1 out of each 4 persons.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Fat middle
Now that it seems more clear that the authorship of this attack may be related with a maroccian cell of Al-Qaeda, the political partys are begining to fight each other (as usual) because everybody believes this is a consequence of our participation in the Iraq war.

Fat Middle, perhaps Im naive but isnt voting out the ruling party exactly what the terrorists wanted the effect of their bombing to have? Since they apparently did it because of spains support of the coalition effert in Iraq. And now because of the attack they have changed their mind and want a government that DOESNT support this policy. So in effect, didnt the terrorists win?

[Artanis]

Gordy will correct me if I'm wrong on this, but the vast majority of the Spanish people was always against participating in the Iraq war. I think it is not so simple as saying the change of government is an effect of the terror attacks.

Also, it seems like the ruling party was punished for blaming ETA too soon and without proof, thus trying to gain votes.

[Insidious Rex]

But werent they likely to win BEFORE the bombings?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
But werent they likely to win BEFORE the bombings?

Yes, they were, I believe... I heard it's because most of the peope idn't want to go to the war, and because the attack was caused because they participated in the war. Also because they lied and said ETA was behind the terror attack, so that they would win - if I'm correct.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Yes, they were, I believe... I heard it's because most of the peope idn't want to go to the war, and because the attack was caused because they participated in the war. Also because they lied and said ETA was behind the terror attack, so that they would win - if I'm correct.

You're correct.

It's true that people was against our participation in the war, but in spite of that, the rulling party (PP) was expected to win (since people had calmed about the war in the last year). The boms refreshed and made greater the anger about the war.

The "lies" of the government about ETA may also have helped to the final result, but I think they have only in a minor proportion. There weren't really lies. They just said that most probably it had been an ETA attack, but they made us know that there were other possibilities and told us the detention of the maroccians...(sp?)

[Janny]

I would like to register at this point my concern for the overt expression of the new Spanish premier. Despite the fact I agree with the war (and am thus biased), I think it is grossly misguided to say that troops will be withdrawn in July. I understand that this is an election promise, but it is excepting a victory of terrorism, which is very worrying. I do not necessarily object to his decision, but at this time it is wrong to state that. By all means withdraw them, but do not make it obviously as a response to the attack and thus set a example and give hope to terrorists.

[Insidious Rex]

Yeah that was my point. Its basically saying that terrorist bombings work.

[Lizra]

I'm curious to see how this plays out. Here you have these putrid, disgusting terroists, killing hundreds of totally innocent people. I would think this would make the Spaniards furious, yet still, they are in the awkward position of making the terrorists pleased with their killing work..... because they (spaniards) were inclined to pull out the war anyway, now there is the unpleasant taste of doing what the terrorists wanted. Ugh!
I read that the current prime minister (or president, sorry FM, I'm out of Spanish current events) chose to go to war with Sadam Hussien because he had a close call being terroized. Now this....I wonder what the general consensus will be when folks have had some time to digest it all, and analyze their true feelings and ideas as to what is really best.

[jerseydevil]

First I wanted to say how sorry I am for the people of Spain. It was a terrible tragedy and sadly it won't be the last.

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Yeah that was my point. Its basically saying that terrorist bombings work.

This is also what scares me. The terrorists accomplished exactly what they wanted - to get a government into spain that was less friendly to America and who would pull out of Iraq.

This has set a very very bad precidence for future elections. Chances are - which was always a chance but just greater now - that a similar thing will be attempted in the US prior to the elections.

The terrorists used Iraq and have amazingly managed to make people believe that these attacks are because of Spain's involvement there. That is just a convenient excuse. France has received a threat today because of the "headscarf ban". They will use any excuse they can to justify their attacks.

The best thing for the western world to do is NOT to pull out of Iraq - but to build the country into a democracy. THIS is what Al Qaeda does NOT want and this is what those bombings are trying to prevent. If people are happy and free in the Middle East - their supporters will dry up.

We need to wake up - this is no different than fighting Hitler and Japan during WWII. This IS a World War whether people want to admit it or not. It is affecting every part of the globe, from Asia to Europe, the Middle East, to North America and South America. The world needs to start treating this as a war - not some little battle against terrorism.

[Nurvingiel]

Though parallels can be made, I think it gives too much credit to terrorists to say it's a war. There aren't armies invading other countries, just cowards attacking innocent civilians. I'm not saying it's not serious - it is. But it's not a war, and I think it's unhelpful to think of it as one.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Though parallels can be made, I think it gives too much credit to terrorists to say it's a war. There aren't armies invading other countries, just cowards attacking innocent civilians. I'm not saying it's not serious - it is. But it's not a war, and I think it's unhelpful to think of it as one.

I disagree completely and I think not thinking of it as a war will allow them to win. Unless we seriously think of this the way they do - which they call it and feel it is a war against the west - we will lose. Not all wars are faught the same way, not all wars are against the same kind of enemies. One of the problems with too many countries right now - is that they aren't viewing this as a war, not the other way around.

[Nurvingiel]

I don't feel that thinking it's will allow terrorists to win. I only feel that it will serve to make people a little more afraid, when they should be a little more calm.
Obviously there are many extraneous factors. That's just one little thing I feel would keep people's spirits up.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
We need to wake up - this is no different than fighting Hitler and Japan during WWII. This IS a World War whether people want to admit it or not. It is affecting every part of the globe, from Asia to Europe, the Middle East, to North America and South America. The world needs to start treating this as a war - not some little battle against terrorism.

I think this is rather different from WWII. Firstly, there have been other wars since that have affected many nations, this is not the first case.

And in this situation there isn't one or two nations that attacks others, these are groups and organisations of people that work independantly from the nations whose nationalities its members have. There can be governments that support these terrorists and have sympathy for them but that is still different from a nation that attacks another.

This complicates the situation gravely because attacking one or more nations isn't going to solve the conflict. And the world will have to work together to put a stop to terrorism by for example taking away the terrorists funding or taking away the reasons why people join these organisations.

Naming it a war is IMO acknowledging the terrorists and justifying the fear of the public has of these people, which is exactly what they want. I agree with Nurvingiel here.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Eärniel
This complicates the situation gravely because attacking one or more nations isn't going to solve the conflict. And the world will have to work together to put a stop to terrorism by for example taking away the terrorists funding or taking away the reasons why people join these organisations.

But how exactly? Would you spend hundreds of million dollars to muslim states, although it would probably not help them at all because all the money is going to the dictator and not the poeple? And that might even increase the terror if the dictator is pro-terrorism.

And you can't really stop the funding, because many of the weapons come from countries like North Korea, China and Iran - and they're not going to stop because the UN tell them (nor if USA or EU).

I don't know if attacking the nations will help, but it might - attacking nations like Iran would probably slow down the terror activity. And better to try that than not doing anything.

[Fat middle]

I agree that the fight with terrorism cannot use the same means as in a war. In Spain we have been fighting ETA for more than 30 years, and IMO only in the last years we have begun to use the correct means.

About 15 years ago the government "inspired" sort of an anti-terrorist group, that actually tortured and killed some terrorists. Yeah, that sound frightful in a democracy, doesn't it? Of course, the relation of that group with the ex-president coudn't be prooved, but the chief of police and the minister of interior were declared guilty and are still in prission.

That sort of fight proved not only as injust as terrorism itself but also useless. Lots of young basques joined ETA...

When I speak abot the correct means that now the government is using I'm referring to:

• Let the world know who ETA really is.
• Close all "legal" supports of ETA: newspapers, political party... (there is still the remnant of their political party, but they aren't allowed to run in the elections)
• Close their economical sources
• Get France and other countries (mostly in South America) to collaborate. Sadly this has its cost. France began to help us only when our government gave some economic adventages to french companies. Most of ETA headquaters are in France, and they used to have a lot of liberty to do whatever they want in that country.
  Thanks God, in the last years France seems to be acting more freely and they are really helping us to stop ETA.
• Never acting by the coercion of terrorist attacks. We have sadly broken this rule in the last elections

What I wanted to say is that if we want to stop terrorism we have to achieve the collaboration of all countries in order to elliminate their training camps and refuges. And we have also to close all kind of supports to terrorism, even if it seems a break on the liberty of expression or a restriction of democracy levels.