Elves Wimp Out? - Page 2

Willow Oran · 08-15-2009, 01:35 PM

I had never had the impression the Sauron's influence actually extended all the way east and south. It seems like he was too busy trying to take over the West and failing to really consolidate his power over two more entire continents. And who knows if Tolkien had imagined the N./S. American continents to be in place where Aman used to be by that point and how many islands were in between. Theoretically, the ships they had at their disposal would have been perfectly capable of making the trip given enough northern islands to hop.

That would have been a vastly different story though - some sort of fusion of fantasy and post-apocalyptic fiction...

Noble Elf Lord · 08-18-2009, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

I had never had the impression the Sauron's influence actually extended all the way east and south. It seems like he was too busy trying to take over the West...

Me neither. I just meant that once he took over the West, he just might have time, power and interest to control rest of ME, and that he possibly might come as far as the refugees are...

Balin, Lord of Moria · 08-18-2009, 02:31 PM

While it's unclear how far Sauron's influence goes to the south and east, or exactly what all there is to the south and east, at least the folks we know that come from those directions, whether the Corsairs of Umbar, Haradrim, Easterlings, Variags, etc. all were on Sauron's side of things, so I've always assumed that he held a certain amount of sway for a good distance in those directions.

I'm not sure what all the way east or south actually would refer to.

It would seem to me that Sauron would certainly pay attention to the Elves. His long history with them would reinforce this thought. But at least to some extent I'm sure he realized that their military might was on the wain, and this, and well as proximity, made his foremost military concern the men of Gondor and Rohan.

EllethValatari · 09-25-2009, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balin, Lord of Moria

I've always been a bit peeved at the elves in LoTR, as, just as Sauron is marshalling his forces to crush all of Middle Earth, the elves are gradually bailing out on Middle Earth and taking the ships west. It just seems like they could have stepped up and stuck around a little while longer and played a larger role in standing up to Sauron. I'm not saying they didn't help in certain ways and they didn't have reasons to be leaving Middle Eart, but it seems they could have done a lot more and as a whole been more engaged in the whole situation. Thoughts?

You have to remember that the time of the elves was over. From the beginning of time Illuvatar had ordained that the Elves care for Middle Earth until the time of men came; when Aragorn became King. The Elves knew it was time for them to leave and therefore left Middle Earth in the hands of men.

Attalus · 09-26-2009, 07:02 PM

Elrond admitted at the Council that he had not the strength to fight Sauron. We know nothing of how many Elves he had under his command, but seemingly they could all fit into the Chamber of Fire. They sent out scouts after the fall of the Nine, but that couldn't have involved more than a hundred Elves or so. If Elrond had the military might, don't you think he would have blocked the Ford against the Nine instead of relying on Magic?

Balin, Lord of Moria · 09-30-2009, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Attalus

Elrond admitted at the Council that he had not the strength to fight Sauron. We know nothing of how many Elves he had under his command, but seemingly they could all fit into the Chamber of Fire. They sent out scouts after the fall of the Nine, but that couldn't have involved more than a hundred Elves or so. If Elrond had the military might, don't you think he would have blocked the Ford against the Nine instead of relying on Magic?

But, straight up, no other kingdom in Middle Earth had the strength to fight Sauron either. Saying Rivendell couldn't fight Sauron by itself is a very different thing than saying that Rivendell couldn't have helped play a part in defeating Sauron as part of a coalition with other elves, men, and dwarves.

As for the Ford, his magic did just fine in stopping the Nine. So I don't see how that would indicate an inability to field any sort of military force. If his magic had failed at the Ford, then that'd be a different set of circumstances.

Sure, the age of the elves was over, but as the storm clouds gathered in Middle Earth, there were still elves, including great leaders like Elrond and Galadriel, around, and they hadn't departed yet. If they had already left, then of course they wouldn't be expected to fight. But a good number were still around at the time of the war. I guess maybe even if they were physically around, to one extent or another they had mentally checked out on Middle Earth and its troubles, leaving those to be dealt with by others around them.

Attalus · 10-04-2009, 07:24 PM

As an earlier poster remarked, Rivendell was built as defensive position, a fortress, if you will, and a border fortress at that. Again, we know nothing of how many Elves Elrond had under his rule, but I feel it significant that he denied having an army of eElves in the armour of the Elder Days. That was ovious hyperbole, but I don't think if he had any kind of army, as opposed to a garrison, he would have said that, demeaning his own force. He mused that there might be "oneor two of his household that it might be good to send", that seems the limit of his help. Even Legolas was not one of his Household, but a messenger who, having discharged his duty, was on his way home. Galadriel and Celeborn obviously had the stronger force, but it was tied down by the forces of Sauron at Dol Guldur, much as Dain was in the North.

barrelrider110 · 10-19-2009, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EllethValatari

You have to remember that the time of the elves was over. From the beginning of time Illuvatar had ordained that the Elves care for Middle Earth until the time of men came; when Aragorn became King. The Elves knew it was time for them to leave and therefore left Middle Earth in the hands of men.

Exactly. Elrond: 'for men multiply and the firstborn decrease and the two kindreds are estranged.'

It is the destiny of Elves to leave for Valinor. They were called by Iluvitar, and they all have the urge to sail west; Legolas refers to that several times. The 'estrangement' no doubt refers to the breaking of the covenant of Numenor, when men attempted to sail to the undying lands. So the Elves for the most part felt no obligation to help the men of Middle Earth. Men allowed Sauron to regain power; the Ringwraiths were men who craved power. So, the prevailing thought was, let the men deal with the situation. Those Elves who helped the cause not only did so to rid Middle Earth of evil and vanquish their ancient foe. They also had their own agendas. Elves of the house of Elrond, some of their kin were men; Galadriel, had a debt to repay for her First-age rebellion, and Legolas also had a debt to repay: his people allowed Gollum to escape.

08-15-2009, 01:35 PM	#21
Willow Oran Deus Ex Machina Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,951	I had never had the impression the Sauron's influence actually extended all the way east and south. It seems like he was too busy trying to take over the West and failing to really consolidate his power over two more entire continents. And who knows if Tolkien had imagined the N./S. American continents to be in place where Aman used to be by that point and how many islands were in between. Theoretically, the ships they had at their disposal would have been perfectly capable of making the trip given enough northern islands to hop. That would have been a vastly different story though - some sort of fusion of fantasy and post-apocalyptic fiction... __________________ "5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE. -Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi

09-26-2009, 07:02 PM	#25
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	Elrond admitted at the Council that he had not the strength to fight Sauron. We know nothing of how many Elves he had under his command, but seemingly they could all fit into the Chamber of Fire. They sent out scouts after the fall of the Nine, but that couldn't have involved more than a hundred Elves or so. If Elrond had the military might, don't you think he would have blocked the Ford against the Nine instead of relying on Magic? __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

10-04-2009, 07:24 PM	#27
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	As an earlier poster remarked, Rivendell was built as defensive position, a fortress, if you will, and a border fortress at that. Again, we know nothing of how many Elves Elrond had under his rule, but I feel it significant that he denied having an army of eElves in the armour of the Elder Days. That was ovious hyperbole, but I don't think if he had any kind of army, as opposed to a garrison, he would have said that, demeaning his own force. He mused that there might be "oneor two of his household that it might be good to send", that seems the limit of his help. Even Legolas was not one of his Household, but a messenger who, having discharged his duty, was on his way home. Galadriel and Celeborn obviously had the stronger force, but it was tied down by the forces of Sauron at Dol Guldur, much as Dain was in the North. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

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08-18-2009, 02:31 PM	#23
Balin, Lord of Moria Sapling Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 7	While it's unclear how far Sauron's influence goes to the south and east, or exactly what all there is to the south and east, at least the folks we know that come from those directions, whether the Corsairs of Umbar, Haradrim, Easterlings, Variags, etc. all were on Sauron's side of things, so I've always assumed that he held a certain amount of sway for a good distance in those directions. I'm not sure what all the way east or south actually would refer to. It would seem to me that Sauron would certainly pay attention to the Elves. His long history with them would reinforce this thought. But at least to some extent I'm sure he realized that their military might was on the wain, and this, and well as proximity, made his foremost military concern the men of Gondor and Rohan.