Origins of Smaug

[Vidugavia]

There are some nice elaborations in the MERP module "Grey mountains". If I remember correctly many of their dragons were wounded or young at the war of wrath. The relative absence of dragons during the second age and first half of the third was due to the need for maturation and healing. I like the idea that dragons heal very slow and are in need of much rest between battles.

Here is the module:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/11306945/The-Grey-Mountains

[Alcuin]

In Tolkien: A Biography, chapter “Enter Mr. Baggins”, Humphrey Carter wrote,

Originally the dragon was called ‘Pryftan’, the name ‘Gandalf’ was given to the chief dwarf, and the wizard was called ‘Bladorthin’. The dragon’s name was soon changed to ‘Smaug’, from the Germanic verb smugan meaning ‘to squeeze through a hole’; Tolkien called this ‘a low philological jest’.

-|-

[this was appended later]

From the Welsh, pryf “worm” + tân “fire”, Pryftan = “Fire-worm”, an apt description of Smaug and a literal translation of Tolkien’s Sindarin term for fire-breathing dragons, urulóki, “fire-serpent/drake/worm”.

For the Welsh, I used the Welsh-English / English-Welsh On-line Dictionary from the Welsh Department at University of Wales, Lampeter. This resource may be useful to others on Entmoot.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I wonder if the Witch-king availed himself of any of them, if he and Sauron kept them aside for other purposes, or if they had any influence over them at all?

The third age dragons seemed to be somewhat indepedent minded, and I suspect that it would take the full will of Sauron, wielding the ring, after he had dropped his disguise as "The Necromancer" at Dol Guldor, to actually commanded them.

[Wilhelm]

Smaug’s age:

We may have some info on how quickly Dragons mature. It took Glaurung 200 years to go from a "soft" dragon that first emerged from the gates of Angband during the siege (first age 260) to the "hard" dragon that emerged during the battle of sudden flame (F.A. 455).

Was that natural development? Was it aided by Morgoth? What implications does it have for Smaug or other dragons and is it helpful in determining his age? I haven’t the foggiest but, it is some data that may help someone.

There is a passage in the Hobbit that is interesting and may have implications to Smaug’s age.

"I kill where I wish and none dare resist. I laid low the warriors of old and their like is not in the world today. Then I was but young and tender. Now I am old and strong, strong, strong."

For current warriors to be watered down as much as Smaug implies would, in turn, imply that he is old. Very old. I would guess we are going back to the 2nd age at least. This is open to interpretation.

I doubt Smaug was mature (perhaps he wasn’t even hatched) in the first age. If he was mature, he probably would have been sent out with Ancalagon the Black to fight the Host of the Valar during the War of Wrath. It seems unlikely he would have escaped that battle.

I would guess that Smaug is born in the 2nd age, possibly late in the first age (like that narrows it down much).


Dragon Creation:

Glaurung is first. He was created by Morgoth. Glaurung was a powerful and very magical beast, he likely created a bunch of offspring (winged, footed, slithering, fire, cold) through his magic and other mysterious ways. These offspring would have the ability to reproduce (in my mind anyway).


Smaug’s Lineage:

There are only 4 named Dragons that I am aware of (Glaurung, Ancalagon, Scatha and Smaug), there is not a lot of info to trace lineage.

Ancalagon the black appears to be the first winged fire-drake (he was the leader and most powerful when they first appeared during the war of wrath). I tend to think that Smaug is a descendant of Ancalagon. And Ancalagon a descendent of Glaurung (as Glaurung is the Father of Dragons).

[Valandil]

In just re-reading 'The Hobbit' while reading it to my two younger boys, I noticed the following in chapter 1 - just after Gandalf pulls out the map:

Originally Posted by The Hobbit, chapter 1

"I don't see that this will help us much," said Thorin disappointedly after a glance. "I remember the Mountains well enough and the lands about it. And I know where Mirkwood is, and the Withered Heath where the great dragons bred."

If Thorin means that literally, and if he is correct, it sounds as though dragons did reproduce, and did not all need to be created by magic. With all the centuries the Dwarves lived in the Withered Heath, and the threat that dragons became to them - I would suspect they would have learned enough by observation to make an accurate guess about this. For instance, they may have observed young dragons suddenly coming along, and slowly growing to maturity.

[Draken]

A fun thread.

I agree with Earendil and Lefty - the dragons always seem more independent-minded than most evil creatures. I seem to recall that when used in the War of the Jewels they sometimes had to be driven to battle by balrogs wielding whips. This, and Smaug's character in general, seem to imply an independent mindset. Dragons are greedy and enjoy destruction, which means they were useful to their creator and his successor, but they are also intelligent and look after Number One.

I picture a small-ish population of them breeding in the north, the odd one tempted south by rumours of plunder to be had, but not inclined to come to heel should Sauron whistle for them.

[Alcuin]

Since Eärniel kicked this thread back into play, let’s not waste the opportunity.

If Smaug isn’t old enough to have known Morgoth, as AndMorgothCame. mused, then where’d he come from? Thrór’s map in The Hobbit shows “the Withered Heath whence came the Great Worms”. That inscription seems a little vague to me.

Here’s a little list we can debate, if anyone cares:

Where do dragons come from?

1. Are they all from the First Age, the handiwork of Morgoth?
2. Are they hatched from eggs?
3. Are they live birth creatures, like some snakes?

Are dragons natural creatures?

1. Are they natural creatures grown to enormous size, possibly with enhanced intelligence? (And if they have “enhanced intelligence”, how is that carried from generation to generation, if they have offspring?)
2. Are they natural creatures filled with evil spirits, as was Carcharoth the Wolf?
3. Are they altogether unnatural creatures?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Do Dragons reproduce? Glaurung is called the father of Dragons, but I don't think this is really meant in a literal sense. I get the impression they are sort of spawned, through a magical process, rather than having a standard method of reproduction.

I'm inclined to think that they are wholly unnatural. If they were basically natural creatures, there would be a "not-evil" version, which there is not, as far as I know.

[Valandil]

Alcuin & Gwai - see my quote from post #25 above. Thorin seems to believe that the dragons 'bred' up there in the Withered Heath.

[Wilhelm]

I agree with Valandil - Thorin believed dragons bred. I'm not sure if this means breeding in the usual sense or some other magical process but, this implies that some time after their initial making, it would seem that dragons could make more dragons (or so says Thorin).

If we accept for a moment that Morgoth wrought the first dragon (or dragons) and that Morgoth can not create life from nothing and he can only manipulate and corrupt it... Here is a strange question. What did he start with to make dragons?

[Valandil]

I suppose Morgoth might have taken something that seems very un-dragon-like - and slowly grew, shaped and transformed it/them into his first dragon(s). Maybe something like a Kimodo Dragon - or maybe other kinds of lizards, snakes, crocodiles, sea turtles, worms, etc. Maybe even combining different ones, growing them, twisting, adding features. I don't know if he also would manage to grow their intelligence, or if they were controlled by other wicked spirits. They certainly ended up with a great deal of independence, so maybe the former.

[Earniel]

The idea that somewhere at the basis of the dragon line is a harmless little salamander makes me smile.

I believe that in the discussion concerning Huan's nature, the idea was put forward that spirits could inhabit or take on perpetual animal shapes. Perhaps dragons are similar, not maiar like the balrogs, but not entirely animal either: strong spirit in the form of a dragon.

[Wilhelm]

Looking at Morgoth's other corruptions of life...

Elves are twisted and broken to become orcs, and it has been suggested that through a similar process trolls came from ents (I don't think this latter statement was ever made by Tolkien - I think he said Trolls were a mockery of Ents but, I'll go with it for now)...

Orcs and Trolls have some similarity to their former states (size, bipedal, eyes, ears, etc...). But dragons... Morgoth really outdid himself to produce something so utterly huge, fire breathing, flying, armoured, intelligent, independent, etc... It's a leap to get to Dragons from anything else I know of in Arda. Small steps seems like a reasonable answer.

Perhaps some of the earlier creations from the pits of Utumno could have gathered at Angband and been further twisted to create Dragons. If this is the case it would give Morgoth a number of centuries to complete the transformation in small steps.

Given the time frame Morgoth had to work with, intelligence and independence may have been part of the plan. I tend to think of Dragons as the source of the independence and wickedness not the embodiment of another spirit.

[Mornorngûr]

All of the information and theories being stated here, make very good reading.
However there is one little thing that everybody misses when retracing Middile-Earth's history, and that is the ring of Barahir. We are told this depicts the badge of the house of Finarfin, and was made in Valinor. The badge contains 2 Serpants in its design, this shows beyond doubt that creatures of this type existed before Morgoth ever established himself anew in Middle-Earth. Serpant's are heavily connected to evil (They issued from the chasms next to Angbands gates, Sauron changed into one, Plus many other mentions of them appear throughout the books.) and therefore are in my mind the most likely start of Dragons.

Morgoth may have corrupted them:

Serpant - Cold Drake- Fire Dragon - Flying Fire Dragon

Or then again maybe not, just a fun idea to ponder.

[Wilhelm]

An excellent point Mornorngûr! There were certainly serpents in the early days. Given some time in Utumno/Angband these could be the key ingredient in the making of Dragons.

I like your evolutionary line as well (Serpant - Cold Drake- Fire Dragon - Flying Fire Dragon). The only hiccup I see is that Glaurung was first, the "Father of Dragons" and he was a Fire Drake.

Of the named dragons Scatha is probably the most serpent like as he did not breathe fire and it has been suggested that he did not have limbs (long-worm).

[Mornorngûr]

Perhaps after he did what he did to the Serpents in Angband to ruin them, and make them into the forms which would be called Dragons. He then imprisoned evil spirits in them, which would explain how Dragons could think and talk. The type of spirit in the body of a Fire-Drake might have been the same as the Balrog's and Arien, a spririt of fire. A Cold-Drake might have been inhabited by a different type of corrupted spirit.

[Valandil]

Wilhelm - where do you find that Scatha did not breathe fire?

Mornorngûr - I doubt the spirits in the dragons were Maiar - like the Balrogs were. Otherwise I think they'd have been much more formidable.

[Mornorngûr]

I am just saying that it is a good theory that could explain things rather well, if it were true. We do not actually know the answer, yet I think there can only be a few possible answers. What do you think then Valandil? Do you have a view on this?

[Valandil]

You ARE right that there are many possible answers. I remember some mention of 'houseless Elves' - and I think that's what the spirits in the Barrows might have been (?). It's also possible that somehow the intelligence of whatever dragons came from was increased as they were developed, and they may not have needed any exterior wayward spirit.

So - I don't have a firm opinion, but am doubtful of a spirit as strong as that of a Maia.

Welcome to Entmoot, btw! Always great to have new folks around - especially those who want to discuss Tolkien.

[Mornorngûr]

Ok, Thanks Valandil.
I've been in deep with Tolkien for some time, but im without anyone to converse about it with.
So I thought I'd come here, and its a quite good little place for Tolkien fans.
As for this matter on the Dragons, I have no more to say except that they quite possibly started off in origin as Serpent creatures.

And yeah I like your ideas there btw, I can accept them fully as possibilitys as to the what we are discussing. I dont agree however, with some ideas people have about Dragons not having a sprit or feá or whatever, and being driven soley by the will of Morgoth.