Independance Day:- A Black Day for Brits?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sween
....George washington ....His mom and i hail from the same town. That is Whitehaven in cumbria my birthplace and his mother i do believe (not sure if she was born there but she lived there for a long time)! ....

wow, that is interesting. I didn't know that bit of history. Thank you for sharing it here.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Ruinel
wow, that is interesting. I didn't know that bit of history. Thank you for sharing it here.

yeah i allways found that intresting just the image of Mommy washington setting sail from whitehaven for America and in many ways sealing the fate of a whole nation also the fact that he was so patriotic even though he was wasnt a long established American

[Millane]

I am very glad we are not like Canada, New Zealand, Australia, etc, etc, etc.

god please dont try and say something like that when you obviously have no idea what you are talking about... you can crap on until the cows come home about america for all i care, and you obviously know something of that... what influence has the queen upon me or any Australian that she does not have on you???
and i am very glad that the people of Australia didnt need to fight a war to ditch the English influence of our country (the commonwealth games, the Governer General etc) because we have the sense to see that they are not worth dying for,you imbecile, we VOTE on things and yes we VOTED about whether we should become a republic a few years back... i am proud to be a citizen of a country that was founded civily and the only smily i can find to throw at you is the rolleyes
(and JD you have just shown why i find Americans intolerable )

[Radagast]

But- your Governor General is not elected is he? I was under the impression he was appointed by HM the Queen? Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Millane]

thats why i said its part of the Engish influence

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Millane
god please dont try and say something like that when you obviously have no idea what you are talking about... you can crap on until the cows come home about america for all i care, and you obviously know something of that... what influence has the queen upon me or any Australian that she does not have on you???

Really this is quite funny, because from day 1 on Entmoot I have read some kind of anti-American sentiments and posts. And I must say half of you have no idea what your talking about either.

and i am very glad that the people of Australia didnt need to fight a war to ditch the English influence of our country (the commonwealth games, the Governer General etc) because we have the sense to see that they are not worth dying for,you imbecile, we VOTE on things and yes we VOTED about whether we should become a republic a few years back... i am proud to be a citizen of a country that was founded civily and the only smily i can find to throw at you is the rolleyes

If you weren't so ignorant you would have known that England pretty much started the war by sending over her troops. And see once again JD didn't mean for you to take offense to this and here you are throwing insults at people. Thats great that you guys became a repubic but I don't think England was placing high amount of pressure on you (with force by troops), increasing taxes and unreasonable tariffs on your goods. I wouldn't be suprised if your constitution was heavily influenced by America's constitution, that our forefathers fought so hard to obtain.

[Baby-K]

Is this thread gonna become like the Best Guitarists thing with you two slinging mud at each other? Just want to know in advance so I can bring popcorn for the inevitable cockfight

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Baby-K
Is this thread gonna become like the Best Guitarists thing with you two slinging mud at each other? Just want to know in advance so I can bring popcorn for the inevitable cockfight

I hope not, I wanted to point out a few things because alot of the non-american mooters have no clue what they are talking about when they hop on the bandwagon to bash America. (Your all so quick to judge us.... shame on you)

This will be my last post in this thread unless something intelligent is said but I expect I will be flamed for not having the same views.

[Millane]

Really this is quite funny, because from day 1 on Entmoot I have read some kind of anti-American sentiments and posts. And I must say half of you have no idea what your talking about either.

well ok next time i jump on the America bashing bandwagon ill try and do it with some courtesy and knowledge

If you weren't so ignorant you would have known that England pretty much started the war by sending over her troops. And see once again JD didn't mean for you to take offense to this and hear you are throwing insults at people. Thats great that you guys became a repubic but I don't think England was placing high amount of pressure on you (with force by troops), increasing taxes and unreasonable tariffs on your goods. I wouldn't be suprised if your constitution was heavily influenced by America's constitution, that our forefathers fought so hard to obtain.

if i wasnt so ignorant... AUSTRALIA DIDNT BECOME A REPUBLIC! ohhh my god... Australia has had a fair share of problems with the Brits, we were the dumping ground for all there crims for one, in the early days we were being rulled by a pack of British coppers, and run by a monarchy the other side of the world. And it is said with pride that we didnt have to fight for our country... i think you'll find that i didnt say that America copped it easier than us, but for JD to make those sorts of comments, well maybe better left unsaid

I hope not, I wanted to point out a few things because alot of the non-american mooters have no clue what they are talking about when they hop on the bandwagon to bash America. (Your all so quick to judge us.... shame on you)

i was replying to JD about his comments, i didnt come here just to have a go at America. You obviously dont like it when someone judges america, and your pretty quick to respon, well thats what i was doing to JD, who is pretty dissillussioned with how things are down here.

Is this thread gonna become like the Best Guitarists thing with you two slinging mud at each other? Just want to know in advance so I can bring popcorn for the inevitable cockfight

quiet you... im not planning at having a go at Ragnarok but if he's having a go at me because i think JD's poor comments required questioning, like hell im leaving

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Millane
if i wasnt so ignorant... AUSTRALIA DIDNT BECOME A REPUBLIC! ohhh my god...

You are right. I'm sorry I misread what you said.

i was replying to JD about his comments, i didnt come here just to have a go at America. You obviously dont like it when someone judges america, and your pretty quick to respon, well thats what i was doing to JD, who is pretty dissillussioned with how things are down here.

I know you didn't post to bash America. I just wanted to point out that it does happen here, as to you your response to JD I think you will agree it is annoying to have people badmouth your country when they have no idea what they are saying.

quiet you... im not planning at having a go at Ragnarok but if he's having a go at me because i think JD's poor comments required questioning, like hell im leaving

Woooo... wait up. I'm not having a go at anyone I just wanted to make a few points.

[Millane]

Woooo... wait up. I'm not having a go at anyone I just wanted to make a few points.

ohhh i thought because you were replying to me you implying that i always have a go at America. well theres no need for me to get worked up

I know you didn't post to bash America. I just wanted to point out that it does happen here, as to you your response to JD I think you will agree it is annoying to have people badmouth your country when they have no idea what they are saying.

thats why i posted

[GrayMouser]

Well, those of us from Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc. etc. , however glad we are that we are not like the U.S., still probably owe much of our peaceful road to independence to the American Revolution.

From that point on, any time one of us got rambunctious and started pushing our rights, the Mother Country would quickly concede the point: "For God's sake, you don't want another War of Independence, do you?"

As for slavery - the US itself did not make it illegal for slavery until the Civil War. It was known at the time of the Declaration of Independence - as well as the Constitutional Convention (which is actually the full birth of our nation) that not addressing slavery would cause problems in the future. The north needed the south and the south refused to give up slavery. The north had abolished slavery and also - no importing of slaves were allowed. Slavery was only permitted for existing slaves. Also - North America - particularly America - recieved very few slaves. Brazil - received the most slaves - 23% of slaves went to Brazil. England was NOT innocent in slavery in the US after 1776 - even up to the civil war. England SUPPORTED the south during the civil war - of course england just want the US to destrpy itself so then England could then and pick up the pieces and regain the old "colonies".

Slavery was abolished in Britain itself in 1772, but in the Empire not till 1834. Both the Royal Navy and the US Navy participated in the campaign against the slave trade; certainly many British merchants were heavily involved in the trade. (For a good fictional trip through this question, check out "Flash for Freedom" in the Flashman series.)

The British government supported the South; mostly out of a desire to damage American strength, but also out of a sympathy with the South's self-proclaimed aristocratic culture. ("The Education of Henry Adams" has some fascinating insights into this time)

Public opinion was split- while there was antipathy to the US among the middle classes, they were also pretty solidly anti-slavery- one of the reasons for the issuing of the Emancipation Proclamation was to swing European public opinion behind the Union.

The working classes in the industrial North (my ancestors) and Midlands were solidly pro-Union, and kept up a boycott on Southern cotton in the face of unemployment and starvation.

[Radagast]

There was a documentary a while ago on BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) saying How Britain Built the Modern World, saying lots of good things about the Empire for once.

It also challenged the traiditonal schoolteacher view taught to children that taxes etc were very unreasonable. And anyway, a significant number of Americans were Brits who came over so we are cousins anyway.

America is the Poor Relation (!)

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Millane
well ok next time i jump on the America bashing bandwagon ill try and do it with some courtesy and knowledge
if i wasnt so ignorant... AUSTRALIA DIDNT BECOME A REPUBLIC! ohhh my god... Australia has had a fair share of problems with the Brits, we were the dumping ground for all there crims for one, in the early days we were being rulled by a pack of British coppers, and run by a monarchy the other side of the world. And it is said with pride that we didnt have to fight for our country... i think you'll find that i didnt say that America copped it easier than us, but for JD to make those sorts of comments, well maybe better left unsaid

What I said was true - you ARE STILL under British rule - however slight it might be. You ARE STILL part of the British Empire.

i was replying to JD about his comments, i didnt come here just to have a go at America. You obviously dont like it when someone judges america, and your pretty quick to respon, well thats what i was doing to JD, who is pretty dissillussioned with how things are down here.

I'm not dissollussioned at all. You seem to be - and you went off the handle about something that I have no real idea why. I just said that I didn't want to be like Australia, Canada, or New Zealand and the many other commonwealth countries which only have partial independence. You don't like being part of the British Empire - then become TRULY independent. As of right now you are not.

quiet you... im not planning at having a go at Ragnarok but if he's having a go at me because i think JD's poor comments required questioning, like hell im leaving

How was my comment poor? I stated a FACT - you ARE part of the British Empire.

May you are just unaware of your Constitution. You ARE a commonwealth UNDER Britain....

Australian Constitution

WHEREAS the people of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Queensland; and Tasmania, humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God, have agreed to unite in one indissoluble Federal Commonwealth under the Crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and under the Constitution hereby established:

And whereas it is expedient to provide for the admission into the Commonwealth of other Australasian Colonies and possessions of the Queen:

Be it therefore enacted by the Queen's most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:-

Short title.
1. This Act may be cited as the Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act.1

Act to extend to the Queen's successors.
2. The provisions of this Act referring to the Queen shall extend to Her Majesty's heirs and successors in the sovereignty of the United Kingdom.

Proclamation of Commonwealth
3. It shall be lawful for the Queen, with the advice of the Privy Council, to declare by proclamation that, on and after a day therein appointed, not being later than one year after the passing of this Act, the people of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Queensland, and Tasmania, and also, if Her Majesty is satisfied that the people of Western Australia have agreed thereto, of Western Australia, shall be united in a Federal Commonwealth under the name of the Commonwealth of Australia. But the Queen may, at any time after the proclamation, appoint a Governor-General for the Commonwealth.

Commencement of Act.
4. The Commonwealth shall be established, and the Constitution of the Commonwealth shall take effect, on and after the day so appointed. But the Parliaments of the several colonies may at any time after the passing of this Act make any such laws, to come into operation on the day so appointed, as they might have made if the Constitution had taken effect at the passing of this Act.

Operation of the constitution and laws.
5. This Act, and all laws made by the Parliament of the Commonwealth under the Constitution, shall be binding on the courts, judges, and people of every State and of every part of the Commonwealth, notwithstanding anything in the laws of any State; and the laws of the Commonwealth shall be in force on all British ships, the Queen's ships of war excepted, whose first port of clearance and whose port of destination are in the Commonwealth.

If you're SO independent - then why do you have the Queen and Britain throughout your Constitution?

By the way - Millane - you are the ignorant one. And I'm glad that I don't judge all Australians just because of you - otherwise I would not be able to talk to my "cousin" who lives in Bateman's Bay.

[jerseydevil]

Here is more of your Constitution...

Executive power.
61. The executive power of the Commonwealth is vested in the Queen and is exercisable by the Governor-General as the Queen's representative, and extends to the execution and maintenance of this Constitution, and of the laws of the Commonwealth.

Appeal to Queen in Council.
74. No appeal shall be permitted to the Queen in Council from a decision of the High Court upon any question, howsoever arising, as to the limits inter se of the Constitutional powers of the Commonwealth and those of any State or States, or as to the limits inter se of the Constitutional powers of any two or more States, unless the High Court shall certify that the question is one which ought to be determined by Her Majesty in Council.

The High Court may so certify if satisfied that for any special reason the certificate should be granted, and thereupon an appeal shall lie to Her Majesty in Council on the question without further leave.

Except as provided in this section, this Constitution shall not impair any right which the Queen may be pleased to exercise by virtue of Her Royal prerogative to grant special leave of appeal from the High Court to Her Majesty in Council. The Parliament may make laws limiting the matters in which such leave may be asked13, but proposed laws containing any such limitation shall be reserved by the Governor-General for Her Majesty's pleasure.

When the Queen and Britain has no role in your Constitution and government - get back to me - and then call me an ignorant American for claiming you are still a part of the British Empire and not fully independent like the United State of America is and has been for 217 years.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Millane
god please dont try and say something like that when you obviously have no idea what you are talking about... you can crap on until the cows come home about america for all i care, and you obviously know something of that... what influence has the queen upon me or any Australian that she does not have on you???

I might suggest you read your Constitution. I posted parts of it in the posts above.

and i am very glad that the people of Australia didnt need to fight a war to ditch the English influence of our country (the commonwealth games, the Governer General etc) because we have the sense to see that they are not worth dying for,you imbecile, we VOTE on things and yes we VOTED about whether we should become a republic a few years back...

WE VOTED TOO - in 1776 - you might have heard about it. This was during the same time Britain sending ships and troops over. You are the imbecile.

i am proud to be a citizen of a country that was founded civily and the only smily i can find to throw at you is the rolleyes

Founded civily? You must know that Australia was founded as a island jail for Britain.Can you please explain to this ignorant American when you exactly were "founded"? Because prior to our independence - we were just a bunch of colonies. The king tore up our charters, blockaded our ports, were taxing us without representation, etc.

(and JD you have just shown why i find Americans intolerable )

Why? Because you are still part of the British Empire and you don't like it? What did I say that is so bad? I am GLAD we are 100% FREE country and not part of the British Empire. If you are happy with it - fine. You know how much crap is said about how terrible America is and you get pissed over the fact that all I said was that I am glad we seperated from England and the Monarchy. We have NO ties to Britain other than as allies - and to me that is a good thing.

You ARE however part of the British Empire. Who knows if at some point in time Britain may decide it wants to abolish your existing Constitution. They did that with our colonial charters - which is one of the reasons why we fought for independence. I doubt it will happen however- but I feel much safer not being part of Britain and I think it was the best thing for America.

[Ruinel]

Sheesh! You know it's true what GrayMouser said, that the American War for Independence played a big factor in whether colonies under British rule would have to shed blood or not, thereafter. It was a costly and bloody war for both sides. The deciding factor was the determination of the Americans to win their independence.

Millane, the United States of America is not in any way shape or form controlled by the Brits. And we do not pay them taxes. However, I know that Canada (not sure about Australia and NZ) pay taxes to the Queen. Why do they tollerate it? I have no idea. Your comments about finding Americans intollerable was pretty shallow and petty. You don't even know me, and you are quick to judge me.

[Sheeana]

While it is true that the legislation states those things, in actuality it seldom happens. It's kind of like a lot of the US laws that everyone ignores. Like the sodomy one that was recently addressed. Sure, it was illegal in some states, but would that stop someone from practising?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sheeana
While it is true that the legislation states those things, in actuality it seldom happens. It's kind of like a lot of the US laws that everyone ignores. Like the sodomy one that was recently addressed. Sure, it was illegal in some states, but would that stop someone from practising?

But as various people claimed the laws are there. Coney had made the comment - "what's to prevent the enforcement?".

The sodomy law was taken up to the Supreme court who ruled that the government didn't have a role in people's bedrooms and declared those laws unconstitutional.

Who do you go to if Britain and the Queen feels like instituting their rights? I noticed that it seems as if Australia can't even deny entry into it's ports by British warships (at least laws passed in Australia do not effect British warships). To me that doesn't seem like a fully independent country. No country's ships - Britain or anyone else can enter our waters without our permission and our laws stand.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sheeana
While it is true that the legislation states those things, in actuality it seldom happens. It's kind of like a lot of the US laws that everyone ignores. Like the sodomy one that was recently addressed. Sure, it was illegal in some states, but would that stop someone from practising?

Please don't take this as an insult, BoP. I am being sincere.

How do you feel (and you can include public opinion also) about those laws being on the books?