Crossing the Helcaraxe

[Melko Belcha]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I really don't know where these years come from because I've got that book (The War of the Jewels). If Maedhros was captured in 1497, then hung from the wall in 1498 (year of the stars, which ends 1500), then rescued in the year of the sun 5... then that's only 7 years. Help me out on this one, please.

Are the years of the Stars considered Valinorian years and thus multiplied by 9+ years? Or, since they've left Valinor this doesn't count anymore. I'm really confused about this.

As far as the Noldor coming to ME... Feanor and the rest leave in 1497 (I suppose, earlier in the same year as Maedhros was captured). So, the path of the Helcaraxe would start the same year, I suppose. Then in 1500...

So, help me out here. I'm doing the math and only coming up with 3 years.

The count of time by Sun Years would not have started until the Sun rose. So the last 3 years would still be counted in Valinorian Years.
Around 29 years pasted from the destruction of the Tree's to the rising of the Sun. And that ain't a very long time to march to ME. The Great March took almost 200 years. 1105 - 1125 Tree's Years.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
The count of time by Sun Years would not have started until the Sun rose. So the last 3 years would still be counted in Valinorian Years.
Around 29 years pasted from the destruction of the Tree's to the rising of the Sun. And that ain't a very long time to march to ME. The Great March took almost 200 years. 1105 - 1125 Tree's Years.

Awe, see that's what I've been trying to figure out since the beginning. It all says, "in the light of the Trees" but then after The Trees are destroyed what happens to time?
So, then it is not the light of the Trees that make a year worth 9+ years of the sun. It is the lack of the sun that makes the difference. Is this right?

[Melko Belcha]

That's how I see it. Considering that Tolkien wrote the count for the Time of the Trees lasted until 1500 Valinorian Years, but the Trees were destroyed in 1495 (I made a error above).

So from what I can gather ruffley 48 Sun Years passed from the destruction to the Trees to the rising of the Sun. 19 S.Y for the Noldor the reach the Helcaraxe, 29 S.Y for the host of Finglofin to cross the Helcaraxe, and Maedhros hung for 24 S.Y. But the spell Thingol fell under when he met Melian lasted for 212 S.Y, and how he survived has always bothered me. But that's one of the things I love about Tolkien, all the unexplained mysteries.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
The Great March took almost 200 years. 1105 - 1125 Tree's Years.

So we have gone from a couple of decades to a couple of centuries? Talk about though elves, being able to survive that long on the ice.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Jonathan
So we have gone from a couple of decades to a couple of centuries? Talk about though elves, being able to survive that long on the ice.

No, no... The Great March West, when the Elves went west across ME to sail to Valinor.

Helcaraxe is when the Noldor walked east across the ice, back to ME.

[Melko Belcha]

Yeah it is kind off weird, it took them almost 100 years to cross from the Anduin to Beleriand 1115 - 1125. It does say that they strayed at times, and even settled in for a time by the Anduin while Orome road ahead, when the Nandor forsoke the march, but still 100 years.

I have made my own Annuals of Aman and Annuals of Beleriand based on the timeline in The Complete Guide to Middle-earth, the Annuals in Morgoth's Ring and The War of the Jewels, plus some of my own little guesses, like I put Durin the Deathless awoke c.1120 Trees Years, during the great Elves march, but I have no evidence to that.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Ruinel
No, no... The Great March West, when the Elves went west across ME to sail to Valinor.

Helcaraxe is when the Noldor walked east across the ice, back to ME.

Ok, but both of the marches were still very looong ones.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Jonathan
Ok, but both of the marches were still very looong ones.

You could say that again.

[azalea]

Re: pain and injury vs. violent assault:
I guess I look at it this way -- Whereas humans are weak and sensitive (bones break easily, skin very sensitive to heat, "Ouch!"), elves are not. Thus, a human falls out of a tree and his leg breaks; an elf's wouldn't. A human would jerk back in pain when he touched a hot pan, but an elf would not be as sensitive (he would feel it, but it wouldn't hurt him). But an elf wouldn't be able to withstand being frozen if trapped in an icy cave or something, I imagine. IOW, minor stuff wouldn't affect them much, but major physical trauma would. That is why humger wouldn't affect them as it would a human, but they could still starve to death if they never got anything to eat. (I guess).

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by azalea
Re: pain and injury vs. violent assault:
I guess I look at it this way -- Whereas humans are weak and sensitive (bones break easily, skin very sensitive to heat, "Ouch!"), elves are not. Thus, a human falls out of a tree and his leg breaks; an elf's wouldn't. A human would jerk back in pain when he touched a hot pan, but an elf would not be as sensitive (he would feel it, but it wouldn't hurt him). But an elf wouldn't be able to withstand being frozen if trapped in an icy cave or something, I imagine. IOW, minor stuff wouldn't affect them much, but major physical trauma would. That is why humger wouldn't affect them as it would a human, but they could still starve to death if they never got anything to eat. (I guess).

That's exactly right. Elves could endure more physical violence and hardship than humans, and for longer periods, but extream conditions could take their toll or cause death depending on the severity of the condition, like, hunger, or the assault. We know that Eol did not surrvive being thrust from a precipice, nor did Angrod and Aegnor surrvive the fires in the Bragalloch. These are a couple of examples of death occuring without assault by weopons.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
How do we know that he wasn't fed? What do you think happened to Dior's children when they were abandoned in the forest? Elves had to eat. They may not have been human, but they were humanoid.

I thought that Dior's children were humans?

[Melko Belcha]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
I thought that Dior's children were humans?

There mother Nimloth was a Sindarin Elf, a kinswoman of Celeborn. So they would have been Half Elves.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
There mother Nimloth was a Sindarin Elf, a kinswoman of Celeborn. So they would have been Half Elves.

ahh yes...I forgot about her

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
That's exactly right. Elves could endure more physical violence and hardship than humans, and for longer periods, but extream conditions could take their toll or cause death depending on the severity of the condition, like, hunger, or the assault. We know that Eol did not surrvive being thrust from a precipice, nor did Angrod and Aegnor surrvive the fires in the Bragalloch. These are a couple of examples of death occuring without assault by weopons.

It isn't said what happens to Dior's children. But one of the follow is likely:
a) they were eaten by wolves
b) they were captured by Orcs and either eaten or taken as slaves

Since no bodies were found, I doubt that they starved to death or died due to exposure to the elements. And even so, it would have taken them a long time, being half-Elven.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
It isn't said what happens to Dior's children. But one of the follow is likely:
a) they were eaten by wolves
b) they were captured by Orcs and either eaten or taken as slaves

Since no bodies were found, I doubt that they starved to death or died due to exposure to the elements. And even so, it would have taken them a long time, being half-Elven.

Just because there were no bodies found doesn't mean they could not have starved to death, or died from the elements. Tolkien says that upon death, the bodies of the Elves dissentigrate very quickly.

[Melko Belcha]

They could have survived for a while, but was lost and could not escape the Drowning of Beleriand, and perished under the wave that covered the land when the Sea's rushed in.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
They could have survived for a while, but was lost and could not escape the Drowning of Beleriand, and perished under the wave that covered the land when the Sea's rushed in.

How many years would be between the time they were lost, and the destruction of Beleriand? I think we must remember too, that although they be Elves, they were just little children at the time, and were probably very incapable of finning for themselves for any long period.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Finning for themselves? I never knew that Elves were fish...

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Finning for themselves? I never knew that Elves were fish...

Very funny. Find, OK?

[afro-elf]

Fend perhaps?