When the ship got there............

[Taniquetil]

Even assuming that Tol Eressa was not a part of Valinor proper, surely travel between the two was not restricted was it? Meaning that even if Frodo and Company LIVED on Tol Eressa, they may have visited Valinor.
And surely Elrond, the son of the saviors of middle earth, and Galadriel, a quarter-Vanya and a daughter of the faithful Finarfin, would not be barred from Valinor proper?

[Taniquetil]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

That doesn’t mean that Men could not visit Eldamar, although there is no record of that for anyone save Eärendil and Elwing. (It seems that the Smith of Wootton Major also visited Eldamar, and that he even travelled briefly into the interior of Valinor; but this tale might be separate from the general Legendarium.)

Erm, what about Tuor? Or does he not count because he was accepted as one of the Eldar?

[Lefty Scaevola]

The story of Tuor getting to Aman is rather tenuous. In addition to there being no actual witness source in the material for it, it is stated in an "and it is said" fashion at the end of his tale, very like the poet who wrote that bit did not believe it himself. I believe it was just some embelishment added onto the oral tradition at some point (in the internal logic of JRRT's creation) and that his ship just wound up trapped in the Shadowy Isles.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

The story of Tuor getting to Aman is rather tenuous. In addition to there being no actual witness source in the material for it, it is stated in an "and it is said" fashion at the end of his tale, very like the poet who wrote that bit did not believe it himself. I believe it was just some embelishment added onto the oral tradition at some point (in the internal logic of JRRT's creation) and that his ship just wound up trapped in the Shadowy Isles.

I seem to remember a small note of Tolkien somewhere on the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl in the Shadowy Sea, and Tolkien's note said (I think) 'Perhaps Idril?'

So if my memory is correct, Tolkien at least at some point was considering Tuor and Idril to never having reached Aman but having become stranded in the Shadowy Seas instead.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

Reckon she had done something bad? Lest they would have taken her with them, or she would have searched for the ships...?

She was just too late in seeking forgiveness and intercession. From Silmarillion, “Akallabêth�,

And last of all the mounting wave, green and cold and plumed with foam, climbing over the land, took to its bosom Tar-MÃ*riel the Queen, fairer than silver or ivory or pearls. Too late she strove to ascend the steep ways of the Meneltarma to the holy place; for the waters overtook her, and her cry was lost in the roaring of the wind.

-

Originally Posted by Taniquetil

Even assuming that Tol Eressa was not a part of Valinor proper, surely travel between the two was not restricted was it? Meaning that even if Frodo and Company LIVED on Tol Eressa, they may have visited Valinor.
And surely Elrond, the son of the saviors of middle earth, and Galadriel, a quarter-Vanya and a daughter of the faithful Finarfin, would not be barred from Valinor proper?

That’s the question, isn’t it? Personally, I don’t believe the three hobbits or Gimli visited the mainland. That said, I don’t think there’s clear evidence one way or the other. By all means, take a position, marshal the texts and arguments to support your position, and argue it!

As far as the heritage of Elrond or Galadriel, I don’t believe those came into account: only what they did mattered. For what it’s worth, I don’t disagree with you: I think that they were permitted to go on to Eldamar.

-

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I seem to remember a small note of Tolkien somewhere on the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl in the Shadowy Sea, and Tolkien's note said (I think) 'Perhaps Idril?'

So if my memory is correct, Tolkien at least at some point was considering Tuor and Idril to never having reached Aman but having become stranded in the Shadowy Seas instead.

The last paragraph “Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin� in Silmarillion says that Tuor was joined to the Noldor. Bolding is mine:

In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him, and ever a longing for the deeps of the Sea grew stronger in his heart. Therefore he built a great ship, and he named it Eärrámë, which is Sea-Wing; and with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.

For the Dúnedain in Númenor, this might not have been a mere guess or speculation: they were in immediate contact with the Eldar of Avallónë (and possibly also of Alqualondë and other ports of Aman). It is very likely that, early on, they confirmed to the Númenóreans that both Eärendil and Tuor were alive and living in Valinor. (And in the case of Eärendil, the Kings of Númenor referred to themselves as the Heir of Eärendil.)

[Taniquetil]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

The story of Tuor getting to Aman is rather tenuous. In addition to there being no actual witness source in the material for it, it is stated in an "and it is said" fashion at the end of his tale, very like the poet who wrote that bit did not believe it himself. I believe it was just some embelishment added onto the oral tradition at some point (in the internal logic of JRRT's creation) and that his ship just wound up trapped in the Shadowy Isles.

My word Lefty! Are you always this pessimistic about the elven legends? Or possibly I just wee it as pessimism because our views on Tolkien's works differ.
We both agree that there are two sorts of mythology in the works "direct mythology" by Tolkien himself and "indirect mythology" which is the legends of the legendary beings: the elves.

Yet both of these have their origin in the mind of Tolkien, and thus if there is no contradiction with the "direct mythology" I believe that we should trust the elves. Are they not wiser than mortal men?

[Taniquetil]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

That’s the question, isn’t it? Personally, I don’t believe the three hobbits or Gimli visited the mainland. That said, I don’t think there’s clear evidence one way or the other. By all means, take a position, marshal the texts and arguments to support your position, and argue it!

As far as the heritage of Elrond or Galadriel, I don’t believe those came into account: only what they did mattered. For what it’s worth, I don’t disagree with you: I think that they were permitted to go on to Eldamar.

Point taken, but in the realm of debate I have found it best to argue vehemently on the subjects in which I know much; and in subjects on which I know little to pose vague questions and watch others who are learned in the matter argue about it. Thus I learn about the subject, and am then able to argue it another day!

As to my marshaling texts, I don't own any of the books, and running to the library every time I wished to post would get old rather quickly I think or maybe I'm just lazy

Indeed, you are correct, the "my daddy was such-and-such routine" didn't seem to work very well in Arda! I didn't really mean it that way, more along the lines that if their passage came down to pleading before the Valar, Elrond and Galadriel would have some very convincing spokespeople!

For what it's worth, I don't disagree with you either, Gimli and the three hobbits were already under a good deal of grace to be in Aman at all, to be allowed to the cities of the Valar and the Vanyar would just be too much (no offence to the Fellowship intended!)

Thanks again for all your input! You have always been the one of the main posters on these rather hair-brained threads I have started!

[ASmileThatExplodes]

Okay, I'm really a newbie and I don't quite get it for the moment, haha. When the Noldor came back to the Undying Lands, after the defeat of Morgoth, weren't they allowed to sail to Eldamar? Did they need to stay on Eressëa?

I understand that the Hobbits and Gimli weren't allowed to sail to Valinor & Eldamar, because they were already very lucky that they could sail to Aman in the first place.

Personally, I like to think that Elrond, Galadriel and the Noldor could live in and visit Eldamar, because their relatives and friends live there. But maybe I'm completely wrong, haha.

Sorry for interrupting your intelligent discussion with my simple questions. :')