Iluvatar made Melkor evil?

[MasterMothra]

" We want, in fact, not so much a Father in Heaven as a grandfather in heaven - a senile benevolence who, as they say, "liked to see young people enjoying themselves," and whose plan for the universe was simply that it might be truly said at the end of each day, "a good time was had by all."

hey, if that place existed i would worship god and praise him for his goodness without hesitation. thats what kind of heaven i would create if i were a god. no needless suffering, killing, raping, all to prove some ridiculous point. unfortunately that place doesnt exist, so ill just have to make do here on earth.

i just had a quick question. i've never really understood what purpose jesus' death served. before jesus, we could go to heaven or hell. after jesus' death we could still go to heaven or hell. what changed?

i only posted the scripture because it seemed like the thing to do here........

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
It is better that all choose or reject goodness of their own free will, than that it be forced on them. We would hope that everyone would choose good, but if even one chooses good, it is better that the choice be given.

Aye, There's the rub. It depends on what your view of evil is.
The definition I cited earlier ('deviation from will of the Supreme Being') makes it impossible for Eru to commit evil. I don't like to argue by definition, but I really can't see any other way to make it clear.

I do believe that, in creating self-willed individuals who can deviate from his will, he creates the possibility of evil.

My thoughts exactly. Thanks. I think this is the underlying philosophy of all histories from Arda.

It leaves the inhabitants of Arda with one question though: What exactly is the will of Eru?

[Wayfarer]

I had posted a response to mothra and artanis, but for some reason my browser saw fit to refresh the page, and I lost it.

Nuts.

[Rían]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
" We want, in fact, not so much a Father in Heaven as a grandfather in heaven - a senile benevolence who, as they say, "liked to see young people enjoying themselves," and whose plan for the universe was simply that it might be truly said at the end of each day, "a good time was had by all."

hey, if that place existed i would worship god and praise him for his goodness without hesitation. thats what kind of heaven i would create if i were a god. no needless suffering, killing, raping, all to prove some ridiculous point. unfortunately that place doesnt exist, so ill just have to make do here on earth.

OH, baloney! You'd be bored stiff after a few hundred years (figuratively speaking! )

i just had a quick question. i've never really understood what purpose jesus' death served. before jesus, we could go to heaven or hell. after jesus' death we could still go to heaven or hell. what changed?

What a good question! I saw it last night before I went out to my dad's birthday dinner (73 years old!) and enjoyed thinking about it. Let's see if I can put my thoughts into typed words...

(1) I would say that Jesus' death for our sins was planned from before time (on our earth). The Bible clearly states Jesus was with God from the beginning and was part of the creation process. Because of the whole free will thing, God clearly envisioned the possibility of people making evil choices and needing a way to be reconciled to Him, and, in an extremely simplistic phrase, God and Jesus "worked things out" before creation (and in that sense, as I stated several pages ago, God indeed "took responsibility" for the possibility of evil) by "planning" redemption thru Jesus. And God certainly knew that Jesus would "make good" on His promise.

Now, however, since the earth is "in" time, there must be an actual time that would be the "best" time for Jesus' incarnation, life and death on earth, and indeed, the Bible says that Jesus came "at the right time" (or some similar wording). So I think that it's not that the death occured at an actual time, but that it was "agreed upon" before time.

(2) Now a reason why it would need to be 'visible' to people, as opposed to happening the day after the very first sin (presumably before writing had been developed, and certainly before TV!), is that it shows the horrible effects of sin. Crucifixion is an ugly death. Sin is ugly. And that's why it happened at the point of time that it did.

(3) Another reason would be the fulfillment of prophesy - crucifixion hadn't been 'invented' when some of the very graphic prophicies of Christ's death were written. So again, because it happened at a certain time, there were written records available to compare to prophesies.


SO - #1 is the main answer - His death was just a fulfillment of the agreement that makes salvation possible. #s 2 and 3 are some minor points.

Any other opinions/thoughts, anyone? Did that make any sense, MM?

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
We want, in fact, not so much a Father in Heaven as a grandfather in heaven - a senile benevolence who, as they say, "liked to see young people enjoying themselves," and whose plan for the universe was simply that it might be truly said at the end of each day, "a good time was had by all."

hey, if that place existed i would worship god and praise him for his goodness without hesitation. thats what kind of heaven i would create if i were a god. no needless suffering, killing, raping, all to prove some ridiculous point. unfortunately that place doesnt exist, so ill just have to make do here on earth.

I'm going to deconstruct this for you, if you don't mind?

#1 You want a universe where anone can do anything they want, as long as they're enjoying themselves, and that's Ok?

#2 You also want a universe without killing, raping, pillaging, and whatnot.

Now, apply quality #1 to quality #2, and ask yourself-don't you think there will always be people who will enjoy killing, Raping, and Pillaging? And since you want everyone to enjoy themselves, you've basically given them carte blanche to do whatever they feel like at the moment.

Contrast that, on the other hand, to what christianity tells you is the case: God's plan for the universe is that all should choose, of their own free will, Goodness and love. This, my friend, is the universe in which there is no suffering.

Perhaps RÃ*an will help me out with a Lewis quote. I believe it is in the last chapter of 'christian behavior', where he says something like "while christianity at first seems to be all about rules and morality, it leads you past that and into a world where everybody is filled with goodness, but they don't call it goodness because they're not paying any attention to it."

i just had a quick question. i've never really understood what purpose jesus' death served. before jesus, we could go to heaven or hell. after jesus' death we could still go to heaven or hell. what changed?

Actually, nothing changed. God required absolute perfection before. It still does. Humans were incapable of perfection. We still are. Only faith could bring about righteousness before, and only faith can bring about righteousness now.

Really, it makes sense, because christ died 'once for all'-not 'for everybody living now' or 'for everybody from this point on'. For every human past, present, and future.

Now, as to why he died at all, that is both easier and more difficult. To redeem sinful humans from death, is the obvious answer. But it goes deeper than that. Part of it is that God is just (or OMNIJust ) meaning that he takes evil seriously. He won't just dismiss it-there's a price to pay. Unfortunately, as imperfect, sinful beings, there's no way we can satisfy that price-how can an imperfect being satisfy the demands of perfection? Nothing. Only a perfect being can do that. And so God, being loving (OMNILOVING! ) , becomes/begets jesus christ, the perfect man who satisfies the demands of justice on our behalf.

[Coney]

Enough with the God-Bothering............start a new thread for whatever-you-find-sacred sake

[Wayfarer]

*ahem*

It's only courtesy to anser someone's questions.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
*ahem*

It's only courtesy to anser someone's questions.

Then surely it is courtesy to ansnwer the initial question without diverting into religious discussion ....... there have been religion based threads in the past..........if you wish to discuss religion then surely that is the place for them? Ask for them to be re-opened or start a new one.

[Wayfarer]

Take note that the person doing the diverting is the same person that started the thread.

[Rían]

Well, this is also a thread about the God of middle earth and one of the highest angels, so it's hard to NOT bring "religion" into it; in fact, it is entirely appropriate, IMO. And as Wayfarer said, we were answering a question. You're welcome to bring some POV's from other religions into this thread, if you want to - I would be interested to see things like that.

Now if we brought religion into one of my favorite threads, Writing in Tengwar, that would be a bit strange. I think you'll see that no one has mentioned religion over there.

BTW, Coney, your avatar made me think of the whole flat earth thing in Tolkien - did you know that he changed his mind in his later years and decided to go with a round earth, and Sun and Moon created before the Two Trees? Perhaps your avatar was a kind of transition stage between flat and round earth!

[Rían]

And I can't find my copy of Christian Behavior - drat, must have loaned it out. I lose so many Lewis books that way! But that sounds exactly like something he would write. Have you read Problem of Pain, Wayfarer and Lief (or anyone else?)

[Wayfarer]

I have not, aside from selected portions. I'm curently looking for that, The Weight of Glory, The Abolition of Man, et al.

[Rían]

Prob of Pain is one of my all-time favorite Lewis books. You should check into the CS Lewis thread in Gen Lit - have you seen it? I finally found someone who has read Till We Have Faces - a really wild Lewis book, with some incredible insights. I didn't know any one else that had ever read that book before, and crickhollow has! The only other person in the WORLD that I know of that has read that book. I had to order it from the publisher.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Take note that the person doing the diverting is the same person that started the thread.

Excuse me, but I've done nothing of the sort.
I would not like this thread to be a discussion about religion/Christianity in general. I would prefer to keep the Christian God out. But it's not up to me to decide.

[MasterMothra]

"Now, apply quality #1 to quality #2, and ask yourself-don't you think there will always be people who will enjoy killing, Raping, and Pillaging? And since you want everyone to enjoy themselves, you've basically given them carte blanche to do whatever they feel like at the moment."

what is heaven then? are we free from all this in heaven?

jesus's death didnt change anything. that leads to the question, "what was he trying to change?". why was there a need for the new testament? was the old test wrong? its ridiculous to even think that the bible was divinely inspired. the hypocrisy and contradictions are numerous. thats why i dont take it says seriously. there are some good thoughts to live by in psalms, but most of it if laughable at best.

[Sween]

My views upon relgion are pretty well known and most likly quite offensive to some. I feel relgion has never given anything to the world except hardship and suffering and admitally in cockermouth a very cheep cafe that does nice baggetts but bar the nice cafe that does nice baggets it has provided a lot of pain and anguish.

As for jesus dieing for our sins surely that is basically a move away from all other christian belifs such as we are responiable for our own actions etc. And what right does someone have to claim judgement over you if you dont acknoledge there authority?

now back to the thread. Did he make him evil? No i doubt the way i read the situation is quite simple to make someone whole they have to have certain elements along with godness and light we also all have a dark side and are all capable of evil to understand evil we have to have a bit of evil within ourselves.

now for melkor he was once good but he had a free will and ambition (surely the most common road to evil) he wished to rule and be different from the valar. The basic of the valar is an odd one as all are considered to be equal but they are not if you so folow me as no one is equal.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
what is heaven then? are we free from all this in heaven?

Let's consider heaven for a moment. Satan was in heaven at one time, and far more glorified than most Christians probably are today. He was a very high angel, one of the greatest. And yet, he had free will, and he chose to make a rebellion. That happened in heaven. I personally don't think that heaven has changed in some dramatic way since Satan and all those other angels revolted.

So yes, we do have the possibility of evil in heaven. But now let's think again about what happens to Christians on Earth. Christ died, and in doing so he opened up the door for people to come to know him. When they choose to step through that door, Christ begins the work of rooting out all that is evil in their lives and replacing it with his nature. When he does this, the inclination of the individual is set toward God, and the nature of the person changes to righteousness over sin.

So sin is possible in heaven, but there won't be any sin. For God won't allow any into heaven which have sin in them, but only his own.

Originally posted by MasterMothra
jesus's death didnt change anything. that leads to the question, "what was he trying to change?".

If you didn't pay attention to RÃ*an's post addressing this, please read it, for it answers the question quite well in my opinion.

Originally posted by MasterMothra
why was there a need for the new testament? was the old test wrong?

The Bible was created over a large span of time, and many people contributed to its creation. The Old Testament is full of prophesies and stories of different individuals' lives. But more than that, the primary use of it is a record of Israel's history as God's chosen nation.

But the New Testament was for a different purpose, to my thinking. It was largely about a different subject, which is Christ's life here on Earth.

These are major generalizations, and I'm sure many people could put these things better than I have. But the New Testament wasn't a replacement of the Old Testament, as the name might imply. It is a continuation of it, but about different things.

Originally posted by MasterMothra
its ridiculous to even think that the bible was divinely inspired. the hypocrisy and contradictions are numerous. thats why i dont take it says seriously. there are some good thoughts to live by in psalms, but most of it if laughable at best.

Please keep bringing your questions on; they are very interesting to think about.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Sween
I feel relgion has never given anything to the world except hardship and suffering and admitally in cockermouth a very cheep cafe that does nice baggetts but bar the nice cafe that does nice baggets it has provided a lot of pain and anguish.

I agree that all religions have caused unnecessary hardships upon mankind (Christianity included). Saying it has never given anything to the world except that though shows simple unbelief. That people misinterpret God's will is plain to see . . . Even Paul, in the Bible misinterpreted his will drastically.

Originally posted by Sween
As for jesus dieing for our sins surely that is basically a move away from all other christian belifs such as we are responiable for our own actions etc.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of Christians who do believe what you have just said to be true. They say that because they are saved, because they believe in God, they can go ahead and do what they like. And they are a terrible witness of God's Truth, and are hypocrits if they claim to believe that the Bible is entirely true.

When someone becomes a Christian, it means they have more responsibility, not less. For now they are witnesses of God's truth, and must be right with him, and acting according to his will.

Originally posted by Sween
And what right does someone have to claim judgement over you if you dont acknoledge there authority?

Are you a parent? Well, if you are, look at it this way. You have children, and what if they refuse to acknowledge your authority? They are yours, so even if they refuse to acknowledge your authority, you still punish them for their disobedience and wrongdoing. God created all of us, just as you created your children, so we can't simply refuse to accept his judgement.

Originally posted by Sween
My views upon relgion are pretty well known and most likly quite offensive to some.

Well, your views are very understandable to me, and not at all offensive. You are welcome to keep them as well, but I hope you don't mind my answering to the best of my ability any questions that you have. It makes me very sad that Christians' being a bad witness, in history and in the present(It also very much bugs me), has deterred you from coming to know Christ.


Oh, one thing I did want to mention is that I agree with all of the opinions you've stated about the reasons for Melkor's being evil. I also agree with you that the Valar aren't equal. It's just like humanity in that way, I suppose. Some humans are greater than others in power. Some humans are more beautiful than others, but those others might be more skillful at dancing or something than the other. Some people are less talented and some are more talented, some are more bright and some less bright. I guess it's the same with the Valar, and there are actually quite a lot of evidences to point to the truth of this perspective. If anyone disagrees with this point of view, I'd be happy to start bringing up these examples .

To Artanis:

Well Artanis, I'm afraid I have to agree with RÃ*an, and I'm sorry that you have trouble with our bringing God into the debate. The thread that you've started is closely interconnected with some people's religious beliefs (Like mine), so much that it'd be very, very tough to separate them. Particularly as some of Tolkien's own religious beliefs come across in his work very clearly. Many of my posts here are entirely about the Silmarillion, while others are entirely about Christian beliefs. It's just impossible to separate them for me on a topic as close (or to me identical) as this issue is to Christianity.

[MasterMothra]

"God indeed "took responsibility" for the possibility of evil) by "planning" redemption thru Jesus. And God certainly knew that Jesus would "make good" on His promise."

read the entire passage and it was well thought out. kinda deja vu for me because i was a christian for 20 years and i thought the same way. there are a few questions i have regarding the statement above.

planning redemption through jesus. there was no need for this in the first place, if there were, then none who sinned could enter heaven b/f jesus came along. we all know that wasnt likely, seeing how abraham(pimped out his wife sara to the pharroah to gain favor and material goods), lot(offered his daughters to the messengers of god for sexual favors) and david(slept and impregnated a married woman, then had her husband murdered and married her afterwards) committed some pretty horrible sins themselves under gods eyes.

jesus making ood on his promise. what was the promise?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Admin Note- I understand that the discussion taking place in this thread may relate to comparisons in real life, namely religion. Comparing the god and evil in Tolkien to god and evil in our world is fine, however, I am seeing more chatter about religion then I am seeing about Iluvatar and Morgoth. That then tends to make the thread off topic.

PLEASE keep the discussion on religion to a minimum. A little more Tolkien and a little less religion folks. This has been a good thread. I don't want to have to close it.