Should evolution be taught in schools?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Elvellon
But this requires the willingness to not question one’s perceptions. I ask again, what makes someone to be sure he has found God and not his own inner desire to find God? What evidence exists that discredits and nullifies all doubts?

All right, let me turn this same question back on you again. What would make you certain that you'd found God?

God doesn't have to speak to everyone in the way that he spoke to me. He blinded Paul in the Bible for three days, and spoke and acted to him in a powerful way that was verifiable; there were witnesses. This experience completely turned Paul's life around. As I said in my above post, he is willing to reach each person at their point of need. I heard God's voice through the Bible, it fulfilled my need, and I follow Christ. But God can work in another way in your life, if you are sincere about finding him.

God can perform miracles, or act in normal life. Things that aren't simply of the spiritual realm, but are apparent in real life. God will act at your point of need. Ask him to do something to prove his existence to you, and he will.

[Lizra]

LE, that is you, filling in the blanks!

[BeardofPants]

Excuse me, but this is a thread on whether or not the theory of evolution should be taught in schools, not a pick up joint for God.

[Cirdan]

Well LE, God and I have had an on again off again relationship. I know that this doesn't count for you since your definition only includes those that are successful, since failing means a dishonest approach, etc. I respect your beliefs even if I don't agree with all of them, so be nice and don't disrespect my life and experiences with this issue. I have my reasons to doubt which are personal. It's not something I just don't think about. It's something I have meditated about for years.

BoP: Are you really surprised where the discussion has led? It's like a black hole from which no thread that comes near can escape.

[US #1]

God is a concept by which we measure our pain. (John Lennon)

God was invented by man to explain things that we didn't understand and to give some comfort to the fact that we die and cease to exist.

Evolution is a theory that is based on real science. It needs to be taught in schools. Creationism is based on blind faith.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by US #1
God is a concept by which we measure our pain. (John Lennon)

God was invented by man to explain things that we didn't understand and to give some comfort to the fact that we die and cease to exist.

Evolution is a theory that is based on real science. It needs to be taught in schools. Creationism is based on blind faith.

I wrote that in case anyone couldn't tell.

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by US #1
God is a concept by which we measure our pain. (John Lennon)

God was invented by man to explain things that we didn't understand and to give some comfort to the fact that we die and cease to exist.

Evolution is a theory that is based on real science. It needs to be taught in schools. Creationism is based on blind faith.

I agree with you 100% US #1 (or is it JD?). Especially the John part, down with Paul. Ooops, sorry OT.

Can I ask why God allows so much pain in the world if He exists? I pray to God at last resort and He doesn't deliver. Another reason why I don't believe in Him. I really believe that we (humans) invented God and that the Bible is fiction (mostly). I'm glad your happy LE and Rian, but I think your happiness is in blind faith. Hmm, can you tell I'm depressed?

[Rían]

Hey, BoP, Lief and I are answering some questions that people asked us And hang in there, anyone that wants to hear my response, it's coming (must pick up 20 Nintendo games tomorrow to keep kids busy ..... ) And cass, I believe I have a very good answer for your question about pain. I'm sorry if it's painful to wait for it, though!

[Lief Erikson]

Lizra, I'm afraid I cannot tell whether what you just said is an objection or not. Please clarify :I.

Cassiopeia, jerseydevil, the question that you have asked about God is one that, I'm sure you're aware, many of people have dealt with and still deal with. I'd like to refer you to a thread called "Did Ilúvatar create evil when he created Melkor," or something like that. We've been discussing there original sin, predestination, several things along that topic.

It all boils down to God granting his creatures free will. Free will is what makes us what and who we are, and God did not choose to restrict our choices. Therefore he permitted us to do evil. By Christianity, he made our original nature good. I think that he made all of the angels, including Satan, originally with a good original nature, but free choice. Evil was among the options open to these beings, and Satan fell into evil. It is my belief that this was through pride and envy, but of course I cannot be sure. In any case, when humanity fell in the Garden of Eden, sin entered into our nature, and when sin entered into our nature, then pain began.

Sin was the starting of pain, and all pain is caused by sin. Therefore, when you say that you hate pain, you say that you hate sin, and hate the fact that bad things happen. Therefore, you hate the fact that the original nature God gave us, if God existed, didn't continue as it was in the Garden of Eden. And the fact that all humanity fell is a tragedy.

God could destroy all sin and all pain in one moment, and bring all humanity into bliss. But would that be just?

And it would also destroy our free will, that which makes us "us." We would be unable to do wrong, and thereby part of our freedom would be severed. One might ask, why did God make us that free? Why did he permit us to choose evil?

Those are the true questions that are being asked, and those I don't know the answer to. All that is shown, however, is that God isn't responsible for our sin, unless you expect him to maintain his creatures' perfection by making them do right, and thereby destroying their free will. I think that this topic really belongs in the thread in the Silmarillion section of Entmoot, where it's being discussed in depth.




Oh dear. Cassiopeia, jerseydevil, the point of view that you two have just expressed about blind faith is the one that I have been trying to combat ever since I entered this thread. Almost all of my posts are on that topic, that what we believe is most definitely not based upon blind faith. If God had wanted humanity to have a blind faith, then that would destroy the personal relationship aspect between God and man, which contradicts the Bible. God doesn't want a bunch of people who simply hope to go to heaven, and he wants to have a personal relationship with each person.

He doesn't demand faith before he reveals himself to the person. Once he reveals himself, through a spiritual or miraculous experience or whatever, once he proves himself to an individual, then faith becomes a requirement. He lets people know that he exists, and then they have a basis of knowledge. Then reasonable, intelligent people can have faith. The faith isn't that God exists, the faith is frequently simply that he will do what he says that he'll do.

Faith is in the walk with Christ, it isn't there in the beginning. Simply look at Paul as an example of this in the Bible, and look at Christian literature for examples in the present. I also have experienced Christ in this way.

Cassiopeia, I read another man's statement once in Entmoot about how his wife was dying and he prayed to God. And God didn't answer, and his wife died. God doesn't promise to answer everyone's problems whenever anyone prays to him. Bad things happen, to Christians and nonChristians alike. There are even instances like that in the Bible. Like in the New Testament, when several young men started trying to do what Paul was doing and cast out demons in Jesus' name. And instead the demon possessed man turned on him and beat them viciously and threw them out naked. People toss Jesus' name around all the time, and a lot of people pray or ask for supernatural help as a last resort. I confess that I've done it too, and it doesn't work.

This doesn't invalidate prayer, it simply means that those who prayed don't understand prayer fully.

On the other hand, sometimes I've prayed and the Lord acts in miraculous ways. And whenever I seriously pray that he give me an answer and tell me what to say, he always answers. God is faithful, and he answers prayer. Sometimes he doesn't answer the way you like it, but all of you who don't know God, I have a piece of advice for you.

Pray that God will reveal himself to you. Pray it sincerely, and don't give up if you don't get an immediate response. And he will answer you.

[Lief Erikson]

Sorry RÃ*an, I'm afraid I beat you to it. But if you have anything to add, please do so.

Originally posted by Cirdan
Well LE, God and I have had an on again off again relationship. I know that this doesn't count for you since your definition only includes those that are successful, since failing means a dishonest approach, etc. I respect your beliefs even if I don't agree with all of them, so be nice and don't disrespect my life and experiences with this issue. I have my reasons to doubt which are personal. It's not something I just don't think about. It's something I have meditated about for years.

I do certainly respect your search. I apologize.

[afro-elf]

The free will argument fails here.

God would have know before hand that people would have and burn in hell.

so to create the world know that would make him "ungodlike"

as far as subjective KNOWLEDGE

I suggest reading : Persinger, Ramachandran, Newberg, Dennett, and Beyerstein

Paul had a typical TLE experience. (Temporal Lobe Epilepsy)

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by afro-elf
The free will argument fails here.

God would have know before hand that people would have and burn in hell.

so to create the world know that would make him "ungodlike"

God did know before hand that people would end up burning in hell, but that doesn't disprove his existence any more than pain or sin's existence does. He makes himself available to everyone, and if people won't accept him, then it's because of their own decision that they go to hell. Hell is judgement, and judgement is to punish unrepentant sin. I don't see any wrongness in God in that, only justice. Of course he had the ability to prevent sin, and thus the need for justice. But if he did that, he would be destroying part of free will. It is the same argument as the one about pain and sin. I believe that God is just, that he sees each soul and knows what's in it, and that he will treat everyone fairly.



As for the rest of your post, I'm afraid that that is entirely a matter of opinion.

[afro-elf]

It would make him ungodlike as far as goodness not a argument about is existance.

torturing someone FOREVER is not mercy

the authors I cited are NOT opinion and Paul fits the TLE.

[Elvellon]

All right, let me turn this same question back on you again. What would make you certain that you'd found God?

Do you ask what would be irrefutable evidence? Simply put, something that could not be explained any other way.

A problem is that we are speaking of subjective experiences, were the observer and the observed are not truly separated. Hence the difficulty to establish certainty. Of this results that faith, and not knowledge, is the pillar of religion.

As for the Bible and Miracles. These are controversial subjects. One was written by men, and therefore theoretically subject to error, one can accept what was written as true or not, in itself it is no proof since the really important events are not verifiable by us. Again is a question of Faith.

Miracles. This brings us the aforementioned problem of subjectivity.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by afro-elf
It would make him ungodlike as far as goodness not a argument about is existance.

torturing someone FOREVER is not mercy

the authors I cited are NOT opinion and Paul fits the TLE.

I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to go and read a bunch of authors like that simply because you aren't willing to try explaining what they believe on your own. Please describe what they say, and I'll respond to it.

I believe that God will punish people for each sin, if they go on without repentence. It says in the Bible that he is just, and it never describes hell in full detail. It has several descriptions of it as a place of darkness and pain. I think that Adolf Hitler will be punished in the flames more thoroughly than you, Afro elf, if you have the misfortune to end up there. Whether or not there are degrees of pain in hell is a matter of conjecture, but it is logical that God would have a place of punishment for sin. He is a just God. Humanity has forced him to use his justice on us, because much of humanity is turned away from him. I know that it isn't mercy to send someone into hell. All of us needed his mercy when we were born, for we were born into sin, and he offered it. If you refuse to accept his mercy, and close your ears to his call and your mind to his message, then you are dealt with in justice.

Originally posted by Elvellon
Do you ask what would be irrefutable evidence? Simply put, something that could not be explained any other way.

Elvellon, I encourage you again the same way I did before. Ask God for a piece of evidence that cannot be explained any other way. It doesn't have to be a subjective experience. Ask him for something outside of yourself, if you please. Remember in the Bible when Gideon rolled out the fleece? And God gave him an answer that was plain and couldn't be taken any other way. Maybe that sort of answer wouldn't be proof enough to you, well then ask him for something different. It sounds to me as though you need to ask him for an answer that would plainly be outside of your head and in no way possible to be your imagination. That's fine. I've seen miracles performed before, so I know that they can happen. Go ahead and ask.

The only necessity, as I said before, is that this isn't simply a flippant request. You have to be sincere of heart.

[Lizra]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson




Go ahead and ask.

The only necessity, as I said before, is that this isn't simply a flippant request. You have to be sincere of heart.

Well, this is imposible LE! What a "set-up"! Never in a million years could I ask sincerely because I firmly believe it is all make-believe and pretend. This is what I mean by talking in circles. You are saying you have to believe before you will be granted "proof"

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Lizra
Well, this is imposible LE! What a "set-up"! Never in a million years could I ask sincerely because I firmly believe it is all make-believe and pretend. This is what I mean by talking in circles. You are saying you have to believe before you will be granted "proof"

I'll be glad to explain this to you. You don't have to believe that God exists to ask him if he exists. And then he'll answer. The sincerity of heart that I spoke of is this: Being really curious to know if God does exist. You have to be serious about this, and not simply shooting off words. For example, I doubt that God would answer a prayer like this: "Dear Jesus, please prove that you exist by getting me a brand new car today."

That, I expect that you can see, would be a flippant prayer. Not praying flippantly and believing that God exists are two very different things, you can do one and not be doing the other. You have to be serious in your search.

[Lizra]

I see....So you ask, and whatever happens happens. I'm sure I 've done this a few times in my lifetime already, , If the situation arises, I'll try again, but this isn't much of a revelation for me here! Thank you anyway!

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Cassiopeia, jerseydevil, the question that you have asked about God is one that, I'm sure you're aware, many of people have dealt with and still deal with. I'd like to refer you to a thread called "Did Ilúvatar create evil when he created Melkor," or something like that. We've been discussing there original sin, predestination, several things along that topic.

I never asked a question. I was making a statement. When people turn to god or a supernatural outside entity is when they feel they can't handle a situation on their own and don't know where to turn. This was plainly displayed by the number of people going to church after 9/11. Now that things have gone back to normal - people have stopped going to church.

Oh dear. Cassiopeia, jerseydevil, the point of view that you two have just expressed about blind faith is the one that I have been trying to combat ever since I entered this thread. Almost all of my posts are on that topic, that what we believe is most definitely not based upon blind faith. If God had wanted humanity to have a blind faith, then that would destroy the personal relationship aspect between God and man, which contradicts the Bible. God doesn't want a bunch of people who simply hope to go to heaven, and he wants to have a personal relationship with each person.

The Bible was written by man to control the masses of people - to set up guidelines on how to act and in order to explain things that they didn't understand. The "one god" is no different than the many gods of Greece and Rome.

Getting back a little to evolution being taught in schools. I went to Catholic school all my life and evolution was taught. We learned about how creationism was a way of explaining something that they didn't understand at the time. But I didn't stop believing because of going to catholic school or what I was taught there. I stopped believing because a "higher power" doesn't make sense. Now if you said that earth's inhabitants were a failed 3rd grade science project from some alien race - that would be believable. But to say that there is a heaven and hell and if you live a good life - you'll go there - I just don't buy it anymore.

People should be good to others and do the right thing - not because of heaven and hell - but just because you should treat others the way you would want to be treated. That is the one rule and really the only rule that I feel is necessary. I don't steal - not because I'm afraid of hell or it's a sin - but because I wouldn't want someone to steal from me.

Humanity has forced him to use his justice on us, because much of humanity is turned away from him. I know that it is mercy to send someone into hell.....If you refuse to accept his mercy, and close your ears to his call and your mind to his message, then you are dealt with in justice.

Do you believe that if a person who is good but does not believe in god will go to hell or be punsihed in some form for not believing?

I know that it is mercy to send someone into hell. All of us needed his mercy when we were born, for we were born into sin, and he offered it.

The concept of original sin was the one thing that I was questioning and not believing in 2nd grade. I never believed in original sin - no matter how many people tried telling me that a baby that wasn't baptised and absolved of sin would go to limbo.

[Rían]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
Can I ask why God allows so much pain in the world if He exists? I pray to God at last resort and He doesn't deliver. Another reason why I don't believe in Him. I really believe that we (humans) invented God and that the Bible is fiction (mostly). I'm glad your happy LE and Rian, but I think your happiness is in blind faith. Hmm, can you tell I'm depressed?

Sorry, cass, I think my first response to this came off as rather flippant - I'm so frustrated that I cannot respond to this thread as quickly as I would like. Let me say that I think I can present some things (by Friday) to you that will solve the intellectual problem of pain. It will not take away the pain, but the bearing of it will be easier, because you can see a reason behind it.

And, BTW, I have a few things to say about the concepts of hell that I see here that I think are totally missing the picture!