Iluvatar made Melkor evil?

[Lief Erikson]

Here's the quote I'm assuming you're using, Cirdan. Please tell me if I'm wrong.

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

We have seen from multiple examples in the books that Ilúvatar's character isn't soiled by evil, and that on the contrary, he is the greatest warrior against it. What is shown here is that he has complete power, authority and knowledge. He can turn evil to good, and things that go against his design he can use for his design. Arda remade will be better than the original Arda, probably because of evil's having been permitted. The knowledge of evil and that everyone in this later time are spared from it will make them appreciate more what they have, and make their life in an evil free environment all the more joyous. These things that have been your greatest argument against our point of view, MasterMothra and Cirdan, are in fact great assets in proving the goodness of Ilúvatar's character as well as his knowledge and power.

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme [Italics added] may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me

I'd like to point out again, Cirdan, that this shows a concern for not only the great events, the "framework," but also for the smaller things that happen in the music. All music, all creation comes from Ilúvatar. He doesn't do evil himself, but he permits it, and he does great wonders by changing the discord (Because its source is himself) into something beautiful that supports Ilúvatar's final creation.

Permitting evil and turning it to good doesn't impinge Ilúvatar's character, for he can see all ends. It also doesn't imply that he's involved in committing this evil. Morgoth's treachery was forseen, and because of that, Ilúvatar was able to use it for his own purposes. Everything is spread before him, and everything he turns to righteousness.

Commanding events however in this way doesn't have to disrupt free will at all. Not once in any part of any of the books do I see Ilúvatar or any of the Valar purposely use their power to make others do what they please.

However, I do see frequent times where Ilúvatar punishes evil without disrupting free will. Frodo's casting the Ring into Mount Doom was sufficient proof of Ilúvatar's willingness to use people to accomplish his ends, and his using the Valar to punish Morgoth. Notice that he only did the latter action after Earendil made his voyage and asked for forgiveness for the Noldor. Repentence was the key to Ilúvatar's punishing Morgoth, just as through a humble person he was able to punish Sauron. Not through any means of forcing people to do as they pleased were these things done; Frodo and Earendil had their own choices to make, and made them. Things can be prophesied, but never did the prophesy being fulfilled happen in ways that wouldn't have happen naturally. These events weren't "forced," any more than any of the other events that happened in the books were forced.

[Wayfarer]

I found an interesting quote today; it's even in quenyan!

Ã*rë ilqua yéva nótina
"When all will be counted."

I found it as the citation in Ardalambion's quenya wordlist, but it seems to refer to the judgement at the end of Arda. If that is the case, it would seem to indicatethat not all things have been 'counted' or decided, and that one day they will be.

[Lief Erikson]

That seems contradictory to other quotes in the Silmarillion, unless you take it as a Day of Judgement type of thing. What's the context?

[Wayfarer]

If the creator instigates the chain of events with prior knowledge as to every step then there is no choice, it is fatalism. If the creator creates without knowing the entire chain of events then free will exists.

This is rather difficult to explain, but I will try.

When God created the universe, he was not creating it in the way that you or I can really understand. We get teh impression that he 'created' it on the first day, and let it progress in a linear manner related to him, and that he has to wait for us to make our choice. But it would be more correct to say that he created the entire history of the universe, from beginning to end, all in one short burst, and that our free will is simply that we choose what we do at any given point in that history. I shall try and make it planar by using an illustration.

Compare history to a line on paper, and yourself to a dot which travels from left to right on the paper, forming that line. Better yet, imagine a series of points forming that line. Each point decides where the point immediately to the right will be, but it is only aware of the points to the left. Following me?

Now, the line has already been formed, and I, looking at the paper, can see all of it in a glance. I can also write a formula which describes the influence that each point has on the point to the right (For example X=Sin(y+free will) ) But that doesn't in any way force the point to make a given decision. I still have no control over that, I simply see the outcome.

Part of the problem in expressing this is that god doesn't exist in time like we do, and so in one way god knows everything before it happens, but in another way he doesn't know anything until it happens. An we, well, we're like a point somewhere in the middle of the line. Even though the line is really already complete, we can only see the stuff that comes before us. And even though the line has a determinite shape, that shape is a result of the choice we make at this junction.

It specifically states in the book that this is the case. Melkor can make no music that Iluvatar does not intend. The gift of free will must mean an acknowledgement that evil will be possible.

Eru says that 'none can alter the music in my despite'. That's 'in Contemptuous defiance or disregard'. or "in defiance of another's power or inclination. " And I think what that means that, even though all the ainur had the power to change the music, melkor could not change it into something contrary to it's original purpose. Witness how Eru raises up two more themes which combat the dischord and uphold the original theme.

I think perhaps it could be expressed this way:
Melkor wanted to change the music from it's stated purpose to his own purpose. But Iluvatar clearly says that none can alter the music in his despite. Does this mean that Eru wanted Melkor to change the music, or that melkor failed to alter the music significantly from it's original form? I think it's the latter. I think that, despite anything that evil men (or gods) do to resist, things will work out the way they were meant to. I do not think this shows that the music was designed to be rebelled againast, but simply that it was designed to work as intended even if resistance does occur.

Does that make sense?

Unless they are omnipotent.

Doesn't omnipotence include the power not to do something?
An omnipotent being could make every decision that is ever made throughout history. And yet we have free will. How is that? He chooses to allow us, as limited creatures, to make some decisions. We may not make the best decisions, but for some reason he seems to be of the opinion that having us make the right decision in our limited fashion is better than him making the perfect decision for us, and worth the risk of us making the wrong decision.

The real question that is begged is why doesn't Ulmo go directly to Turgon. Is it because the only real goal is to fullfill the destiny of Earendil? I only wonder because the Ainur could have cast down Melkor themselves if that was thier goal.

I can answer those questions.

ulmo didn't go to turgon directly because, by this time, melkor was gaining the upper hand, and had actually driven ulmo's power from certain water areas in beleriand. Unfortunately, the area around gondolin was one of these, and so Ulmo couldn't get through with a message,-melkor was interfering.

The ainur could have cast melkor down themselves-they had done it twice before. But both of those times the struggle was catastrophic, and destroyed or reshaped most of the world. (There's a reason they called it the war of wrath). Remember, when the Valar eventually do attack Morgoth, they end up destroying Beleriand. It comes down to morgoth's ring-and action against him will have to destroy the very earth.

[Wayfarer]

Lief:

That quote is from Firiels Song, which is an incomplete primitive Qenya work by tolkien. The full text is:

Ilu Ilúvatar en káre eldain a fÃ*rimoin
The Father made the World for Elves and Mortals
ar antaróta mannar Valion: númessier.
and he gave it into the hands of the Lords. They are in the West
Toi aina, mána, meldielto - enga morion:
They are holy, blessed, and beloved: save the dark one.
talantie. Melko Mardello lende: márie.
He is fallen. Melko [Melkor] has gone from Earth: it is good.
En kárielto eldain Isil, hildin Úr-anar.
For Elves they made the Moon, but for Men the red Sun;
Toi Ã*rimar. Ilyain antalto annar lestanen
which are beautiful. To all they gave in measure the gifts
Ilúvatáren. Ilu vanya, fanya, eari,
of Ilúvatar. The World is fair, the sky, the seas,
i-mar, ar ilqa Ã*men. Ã�rima ye Númenor.
the earth, and all that is in them. Lovely is Númenor.
Nan úye sére indo-ninya sÃ*men, ullume;
But my hearth resteth not here for ever,
ten sÃ* ye tyelma, yéva tyel ar i narqelion,
for here is ending, and there will be an end and the Fading,
Ã*re ilqa yéva nótina, hostainiéva, yallume:
when all is counted, and all numbered at last,
ananta úva táre fárea, ufárea!
but yet it will not be enough, not enough.
Man táre antáva nin Ilúvatar, Ilúvatar
What will the Father, O Father, give me
enyáre tar i tyel, Ã*re Anarinya qeluva?
in that day beyond the end when my Sun faileth?

Lovely. Sheer Bliss.

[MasterMothra]

"When God created the universe, he was not creating it in the way that you or I can really understand. "
"This is rather difficult to explain, but I will try."

really? then how is it that you understand?


Eru says that 'none can alter the music in my despite'. That's 'in Contemptuous defiance or disregard'. or "in defiance of another's power or inclination. "

no it doesnt say that, ill quote it one more time for you:

"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite."

all the themes played have they're "uttermost" source in eru, even morgoth's. and none can alter it, not even melkor, even though he thinks he is altering it, he really isnt.

in my opinion, free will is always compromised with the inclusion of an all powerful deity. sorry if that offends you.

[Wayfarer]

really? then how is it that you understand?

did I say I did? I try, but i admit that I can't do more than get a rough idea of it. But trying to encompass an extradimesional process taxes my little brain.

nor can any alter the music in my despite.

Which is what I repeated originally.

But you mention all themes having their uttermost source in Eru. Isn't free will the ultimate satisfaction of this? Because if the ability to do evil is part of the gift of free will (which is from Eru), then you aren't forced into the somewhat indefensible position that eru really wanted Evil in the first place, and was just being arbitrary.

in my opinion, free will is always compromised with the inclusion of an all powerful deity. sorry if that offends you

I strongly believe that america would be a great deal better if people could handle disagreements and not take anything personally.

That said, there are very few opinions you could have that would genuinely offend me. Even if I found your manner offensive I would have respect for your ideas. And so far all parties have been eminently civilized, which speaks very highly of you all.

[Lief Erikson]

I thought I already gave you, MasterMothra and Cirdan, a workable alternate explanation for that passage, which actually fits better with the observed evidence. Your current theory, that Ilúvatar is responsible for evil because all themes come from him, totally goes against all observed evidence throughout the books.

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite.

This doesn't have to mean that evil comes from Ilúvatar, and if you take it that way, you run into major contradictions.

Morgoth attempts to do evil, but because his actions were already mapped out from the beginning, his theme from Ilúvatar, he couldn't defeat Ilúvatar. His arrogance, power and knowledge were all for naught, for Ilúvatar could use them for his own purpose. Morgoth's evil would create the better final Arda Remade. Ilúvatar isn't the one who does evil, and evil is against his nature. Yet because Melkor's theme is in Ilúvatar and his natural choices known by Ilúvatar, Ilúvatar can command and do as he pleases with Melkor's theme. Ilúvatar didn't change Melkor's natural choices at all, and he didn't make them either good or bad. We've already given many, many examples, none of which have yet been shown unworkable, as to how free will and foreknowledge can coexist. Morgoth's music is against Ilúvatar's theme, but Ilúvatar knew it would be and planned to use it for an even better thing. Therefore, it is against Ilúvatar's will and design, while at the same time, because of Ilúvatar's being all powerful, it is part of his design and is one of his themes, that he is using for a greater purpose.

I know that these things aren't specifically stated in the passage, but they are an alternate interpretation that works, and that fits the observed evidence far better than your interpretation, MasterMothra and Cirdan, that Ilúvatar created Melkor evil.

Originally posted by MasterMothra
in my opinion, free will is always compromised with the inclusion of an all powerful deity.

We have given many examples as to why this isn't the case, and so far you haven't responded to them. Would you, please?

[Lief Erikson]

Thanks for sending that passage, Wayfarer. You're right, it really is lovely .

[Rían]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
(For example X=Sin(y+free will) )

I like that And I ask "y sin?" I suppose it's because we're proud and selfish *sigh* And another profound question - "y tan?" I, for one, can't, without getting a sunburn!

I do not think this shows that the music was designed to be rebelled againast, but simply that it was designed to work as intended even if resistance does occur.

I like the way you worded that, Wayfarer. The intent will always carry thru, even against resistance.

Doesn't omnipotence include the power not to do something.

Yes, and the letter quote I gave shows that JRRT thought that way, too.

[Rían]

Thanks from me, too, Wayfarer, for FÃ*riels Song. She is such a complex character. The song is really lovely.


And I have a slightly different take on the oft-quoted "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite." I would back it up a level - not concentrate on the actual discordant theme that Melkor tried to force in, but the fact that Melkor wouldn't even be around to even have the chance of forcing it in if Ilúvatar hadn't created him.


Rather like the story about God and the scientist -

The scientist says to God, "hey, God, we don't need you anymore! Look at all of our advances, our knowledge - you can just retire quietly somewhere and leave us alone."

God answers "You think you don't need me? Well, let's compare our skill - let's have a man-making contest!"

scientist - "ok, GO!" *starts gathering stuff*

God - "oh, no you don't! You go get your OWN dirt!"

[MasterMothra]

"We have given many examples as to why this isn't the case, and so far you haven't responded to them. Would you, please?"

"if god has seen the future, do we have the free will to change it?"

that is as simple as i can make it. i understand everyones posts and what they are saying, and i respect them, they are good. but that doesnt mean i have to agree. i used to be a practicing christian myself, and i can see what your talking about in that perspective, but i do not share that perspective anymore. i dont trust in a god that has never been there for me, so i learned to trust in myself and i am a lot better off. that may not work for you, but it does for me.

i'm not saying i'm right and your wrong, because i dont think that anyone can truely know. either in tolkiens works or with religeon, we will see when we die, or not. i think that tolkiens works are a great topic of discussion, and i like this site for the most part, but all i can do is tell you why i think like that. if you understand then great, if not then im sorry.

[Rían]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
i dont trust in a god that has never been there for me, so i learned to trust in myself and i am a lot better off. that may not work for you, but it does for me.

When I see something like that, I can well imagine that you have gone thru some very painful times. I'm so sorry to hear that - pain is agonizing. I am very well "acquainted with grief" myself (quote is from Isaiah 53:3) as are the other posters here, I'm sure, in varying degrees. I know you have absolutely no obligation to me, except perhaps an "Internet friendship" obligation, as we have posted together for awhile now on some thoughtful topics, but I would like to be bold and ask a favor of you: Would you do me the honor of reading a book on my recommendation: The Problem of Pain by C. S. Lewis, who was a great friend of Tolkien's.

edit- BTW, be sure to read the preface, it's very good.

[Wayfarer]

[QUOTE"if god has seen the future, do we have the free will to change it?"

that is as simple as i can make it.[/QUOTE]

The answer, of course, is no. Because if you have been seen to make a certain choice (as an excercise of free will) then that choice is made, and there is no way you can go back and make it again.

It's sort of like time travel-if you go back and try to change history, it will probobly turn out that history was the way it was in the first place because you tried to interfere.

Butthat's enough on that subject. I understand your position a well, mothra But, if i may say, I dont trust in a myself because I've never managed to get it right, so i learned to trust in God and I am a lot better off.

Incidentally, what does it mean to be a 'practicing' christian? Is it really something that you need to practice for, or even can? ]: )

[Lief Erikson]

i dont trust in a god that has never been there for me, so i learned to trust in myself and i am a lot better off. that may not work for you, but it does for me.

When you don't receive answer to prayer, that means God doesn't exist. That's a reason for nonbelief that I've heard many times now, and there are definite reasons why you don't receive an answer. God isn't obligated to answer all of our prayers in the affirmative. God doesn't necessarily demand that people who don't know him personally trust in him in blind faith, either (Which is, I think, what you used to do). But as this is totally off topic, I'm not going to get into explaining those things here.

"if god has seen the future, do we have the free will to change it?"

Yes, I do understand your point of view, MasterMothra. If you can understand our point of view on this, then you know that God's knowing the future doesn't contradict free will. God could set everything up and make it go, thereby making our apparent free will not real free will. But he didn't, in either the Silmarillion or the real world. Your question is one that we've answered. God's "seeing" the future doesn't mean we're forced into a certain design. We can do what we wish, only God knows what we will do. That doesn't mean that he's making us do it; he simply knows what it'll be.

You remember what you did yesterday? Well let me use this as another explanation for the apparent paradox. You're saying, God knows what I'll do tomorrow, so what can I do to change what I'll do tomorrow? It's all mapped out. What you did yesterday is mapped out to you now, so you know what you did. Certainly you had the ability to do something different, but your seeing now what you did do then doesn't mean that now you're making yourself in the past do the actions you did then (I hope you understand that sentence ). You aren't in control of what you did yesterday, but you know that it happened. And at the time it was happening, you had the ability to change it. You could have done exactly what you liked with that day. You simply now see what you did do.

Well now let's go to the present day, which is today. God is in the tomorrow, he can see what you did today. What you're doing now is today, but God can see it as yesterday. You can't change what you did before, but you could have changed it while you were doing it. You are in charge of your own actions now, but God can simply look back, as it were, and know what you did (or are going to do).

If you can see what you did yesterday, you can go to someone and make a prophesy about it easily. "Guess what," you can say to someone else, "I spent 3 hours on the computer yesterday."

God can say, "Guess what, you are going to grow up to be a strong young man who will go to Africa as a missionary."

This isn't any more contradictory to your free will then it is to your looking back at yesterday and saying what you did then. In God's eyes, it has already happened. From your limited perspective, it hasn't happened yet, but God isn't inside the same time frame as you are. If he was, then your argument would be very reasonable.

God is outside of time. To us, it is a question of what will we do? To him, it is a question of what we did. His giving a prophesy doesn't force us into that course of action; it was our free will that led us to do that action.

You simply have to stop looking at God from inside your own time frame, and understand that he is outside of time and created time, and thus to him everything has already happened is happening. Our now isn't his now. Look at the Bible, how he expresses the eternity of his being. I AM, he says. This is what Jesus once said: "Before Abraham was, I am."

[Lief Erikson]

You must see, if you can understand the argument, that there is a strong answer for your question. Only if you continue to look at it from your current perspective, placing God in your now, does your question make much sense. Since you don't believe in God and you don't believe Jesus is the way to heaven, you can ignore the Bible and thus make your question make sense. Therefore, by discarding the Bible you can make your question make sense. But then it isn't a question to Christian beliefs, it is a question to your own beliefs. Therefore the Biblical explanation is more likely a better alternative then a newly created belief with an unanswerable question in it .

You can also wait until you die till you find out the truth, just like you suggested you might do, but I wouldn't advise it . It is possible to get to know God here on Earth, to witness his miracles, to hear his voice and to see his hand at work.

You don't have to accept the Bible's passages as truth, but we're going by the Silmarillion and Tolkien's works, assuming that they're true for his world, and we're discussing his world. You don't have to accept this Christian explanation for our own present times, and I respect your opinions. You can continue to put God in our now, if you want to.

But in the Silmarillion, I think you do have to accept it. That is simply because it makes sense, while the other explanation, that Ilúvatar made evil on purpose, doesn't make sense at all because of the observed evidence, unless you assume Ilúvatar to be, in reality, a despicable character.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Incidentally, what does it mean to be a 'practicing' christian? Is it really something that you need to practice for, or even can? ]: )

Did you really not know the answer to that? (Raisees his eyebrows) Well, I can explain that one to you. A practicing Christian is one who goes through the outward thing, going to church, saying their prayers, believing in God and having faith in him. They pay tythes, perhaps attend meetings, and do all of the things that a normal Christian does.

The difference is in the heart. A born again Christian who has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit has entered into a powerful new world, the spiritual dimension. Then things change for them. They pray, and their prayers are answered. Laying on hands can bring healing to people. Faith is rewarded by miracles. They can hear God's voice, and they have evidence of God's love. Then they can really, truly love God before family, before friends, and can be willing to give up everything they own, including their very lives for him. God doesn't demand a blind faith, he simply requests that people seek him. They don't have to believe he exists to seek him, to pray that he will reveal himself. Once he does, then life takes an utterly exciting turn that can take one's breath away.

[Lief Erikson]

Jeepers, I might be going overboard on my posting. I hope you people read it all, but I suppose if you don't want to, you don't have to .

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Cirdan, what I really don't get is how you can simply restate the same opinions as you gave before, ignoring all of the examples and explanations that we've given on these subjects. We have shown in numerous examples from real life and the Tolkien books that free will can coexist with foreknowledge. You haven't given any reason why it can't, you've simply said it can't.

But rather than restating my examples and the reasons for them again, I will simply go on to the two parts of your posts that we haven't already responded to as thoroughly.

I've read all the analogies that you posted but I don't find them convincing. But enough about me.

What it says, if we're talking about the same passage, is that Melkor cannot make any tune that Ilúvatar will not turn to good.

Except that these "tunes" are the force behind the creation of Arda. Iluvatar is saying that he has a plan greater than all and beyond the awareness of the Ainur, and they are part of it without exception.

As for whether or not Morgoth was purposely created evil . . . if you accept that point of view, then you're calling Ilúvatar a liar, a hypocrite, and a tyrant. He strikes out many times against evil, to protect and uphold the righteous. If he purposely is dabbling in it himself, by causing it or creating it, then he is a hypocrite. He also is a tyrant to the good peoples that he claims to uphold, for bringing upon them evil. He also is a liar for pretending to be good.

That would be your interpretation and is not supported by the story. The fact that Melkor is rarely impeded in his activity and rarely punished shows that his activity is within the design that Iluvatar put forth. He doesn't always intervene because he wants his "children" to rise above and in doing so become greater than their creation. Iluvatar had every chance to destroy Melkor if pure goodness was his only desire in creating the Ainur. What he desires is for them to "fill in" creation with themselves. Would they grow without adversity? Would the sun and the moon ever have been creates without the destruction of Telperion and Silperion? It is not that he wishes evil but that he allows it and even creates its potential. How does the thought of evil occur without an external influence? It is easy enough to say that they just happened but it doesn't answer the question. If it is in the nature of the created being then the propensity is, in fact, part of the creation. That is far from saying Melkor was intended to do all the evil things he did. In many cases it was the weakness and lack of resolve on the part of the other Ainur to stop him. It was also part of the design that Melkor challenge the other Ainur. He was made the strongest so me could stand up to any of the individual Ainu so they needed each other to fight him and in doing so learn the interdependency of the lives in ME.

[Lief Erikson]

Except that these "tunes" are the force behind the creation of Arda. Iluvatar is saying that he has a plan greater than all and beyond the awareness of the Ainur, and they are part of it without exception.

He said that any evil Morgoth did would rebound to good, and that Morgoth could create no tune that Ilúvatar wouldn't use for his own design. Morgoth wasn't designed to carry out evil, he was permitted to carry out evil because he was given free will. And Ilúvatar's plan was capable of using even Morgoth's evil for good.

Originally posted by Cirdan

quote:
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As for whether or not Morgoth was purposely created evil . . . if you accept that point of view, then you're calling Ilúvatar a liar, a hypocrite, and a tyrant. He strikes out many times against evil, to protect and uphold the righteous. If he purposely is dabbling in it himself, by causing it or creating it, then he is a hypocrite. He also is a tyrant to the good peoples that he claims to uphold, for bringing upon them evil. He also is a liar for pretending to be good.

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That would be your interpretation and is not supported by the story. The fact that Melkor is rarely impeded in his activity and rarely punished shows that his activity is within the design that Iluvatar put forth.

I know that Ilúvatar's character being so villainous isn't supported in any way by any of Tolkien's works. However, that is the view that you have to accept if you're going to say that he created evil, and that he predestined Morgoth or anyone else evil.

Originally posted by Cirdan
The fact that Melkor is rarely impeded in his activity and rarely punished shows that his activity is within the design that Iluvatar put forth. He doesn't always intervene because he wants his "children" to rise above and in doing so become greater than their creation. Iluvatar had every chance to destroy Melkor if pure goodness was his only desire in creating the Ainur.

He uses ordinary people for his own design, such Frodo. The Noldor betrayed him, and Ilúvatar permitted them to go against him, but punished them by permitting Morgoth to work his evil against him. Only when, through Earendil, they asked for forgiveness did he work through the Valar to punish Morgoth. They had come back into the right place, and once they did, Ilúvatar punished their oppressors swiftly. His design is pure goodness, but it isn't pure goodness to deny free will. That's an argument people often use against Christianity as well: If God is all powerful, why doesn't he just destroy evil all in a flash?

Because God/Ilúvatar knows that Arda/Earth Remade will be better for there having been sin. Without sin, we could never have come to know god's justice, and righteousness would have been natural, not appreciated. He permits it to bring his creatures to an even greater holiness. The final outcome will be pure goodness, and his design for getting there also is good. Ilúvatar can hate evil, destroy and punish evil, but evil was permitted because of free will, and the final outcome will be good.

Originally posted by Cirdan
What he desires is for them to "fill in" creation with themselves. Would they grow without adversity? Would the sun and the moon ever have been creates without the destruction of Telperion and Silperion? It is not that he wishes evil but that he allows it and even creates its potential. How does the thought of evil occur without an external influence? It is easy enough to say that they just happened but it doesn't answer the question. If it is in the nature of the created being then the propensity is, in fact, part of the creation.

I agree with you that Ilúvatar probably permits evil to enable his creatures to come to a greater goodness. That doesn't demonstrate a "fill in" creation, though. Once evil has served its purpose for the final good, it will be destroyed. An example of this is the use of Morgoth to bring the Noldor to repentence, and then Morgoth's defeat once they had mended the fault in their ways.

None of this shows that Ilúvatar creates evil and I think he does hate it. However, as in the Bible, sometimes only through pain can you come to know him better.

So to conclude, Cirdan, I think that this post shows I'm in agreement with you on a lot of the points you brought forth. For once .