marriage

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Valandil

(I keep TRYING to go to bed! )

First of all, where do you get the part I underlined? That's presumptive.

It' not anymore presumptive than what the comments are directed to non-Christians.

Second, my translation doesn't say that the beaten slave lingers a day or two and then dies, it says:

Which clearly indicates to me that the slave lives. Does your translation indicate otherwise? (granted - translating these old documents has been tricky) Mine is the NIV.

As I said - WHICH version of the bible would you like me to use - because there are many different versions. There is no true translation.

Not so sure that slavery used to be considered as heinous as it is in modern times. Life was rough all around in antiquity - and simply surviving, in any way, shape or form, was an achievement. And I still don't think the passage condones slavery - it simply begins to place limits upon it.

Just because it wasn't considered heinous - doesn't mean that it was right. Hell Europe brought slavery to these shores and we're beat up constantly for our past - regardless of the fact that it was acceptable at the time. However - if god is so kind then he would have condemned slavery outright - just like he condemned MANY things with the ten commandments that had been acceptable. I think you are grasping at straws here.

I would be intested in hearing what christian religion you and Rian belong to.

[Rían]

JD - here is the whole paragraph, with index numbers attached:

Originally Posted by Rian

1. It reminds me of people who object to the Christian concept of "submission" of the wife to the husband in marriage, when they really have no idea of what it means, or are even aware of the much HARDER command to the husband to love his wife like Christ loves the church.
2. They'll say things like, "You shouldn't submit to your husband! You should think for yourself!"
3. And to them I respond, "You tell me to think for myself, yet you tell me to do what YOU think is right?! How is that thinking for myself?! I've THOUGHT for myself, thank you, and I think the Christian concept of submission (as opposed to what non-Christians think it is) is an excellent one. So please don't tell me what to do - I refuse to submit to your opinion."

group 1 - please note "object" - this means they have TALKED. Yet you go ahead and make a incorrect and insulting assumption that I was trying to read their mind. Not every person has TALKED to me about this issue, and I don't make assumptions about what people think unless they have TALKED to me.

group 2 - please note "say" - this means they have TALKED.

group 3 - To have been entirely accurate, I should have inserted the word "some" in the bit in parenthesis, but it never even occurred to me to do this, because of the clear indications that it was people that I had TALKED to. However, I would be glad to go back and edit the sentence if it truly distresses you and you feel you need it to clarify what has already been clarified earlier in the paragraph.

[Rían]

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[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

JD - here is the whole paragraph, with index numbers attached:



group 1 - please note "object" - this means they have TALKED. Yet you go ahead and make a incorrect and insulting assumption that I was trying to read their mind. Not every person has TALKED to me about this issue, and I don't make assumptions about what people think unless they have TALKED to me.

group 2 - please note "say" - this means they have TALKED.

group 3 - To have been entirely accurate, I should have inserted the word "some" in the bit in parenthesis, but it never even occurred to me to do this, because of the clear indications that it was people that I had TALKED to. However, I would be glad to go back and edit the sentence if it truly distresses you and you feel you need it to clarify what has already been clarified earlier in the paragraph.

Rian - I'm perfectly AWARE of what you said - my beef is with this - "(as opposed to what non-Christians think it is)". You generalize here. You don't indicate in anyway that you are referring to people you have ACTUALLY talked to - you routinely generalize about non-christians. You can deny it all you want though - but you do it all over the place here.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

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What is this for - why do you need a place holder? Why don't you just post instead of saving a place.

[Rían]

I changed the sentence you objected to, because I'm interested in being accurate. As I noted, the rest of the paragraph before this sentence used words showing it was about people I TALKED with, which certainly means that I"m not talking about ALL people, or attempting to read their minds! But if you had trouble understanding that, then I"m happy to change it and make it more clear - I have done so already

[Rían]

katya - I think thinking about being a good wife is a great idea, and a guy should think about how to be a good husband. What do you think are things that make a good wife and a good husband? I'm currently reading a very good book on the subject called "Love and Respect"

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Where does she say that? Maybe not ALL who call themselves Christians buy into the notion of Biblical Christian submission - as it regards marriage anyway. But there is still a belief/practice on this which can properly be called an 'Orthodox Christian view' (and by Orthodox here I mean 'classic' or 'generally, historically accepted' in Christianity - not 'Eastern Orthodox').

I don't understand this concept at all, so I bumped the Theology thread with a question to RÃ*an (or anyone else who cares to field that question).

Anyway, I too think being a good wife is an admiral goal, as, obviously, is being a good husband. I think marriage is a two-way street and both people have to put effort into it. My parents have a great marriage, and I really admire them. I'm going to try to follow their example.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

It' not anymore presumptive than what the comments are directed to non-Christians.

Disagreed - but we're going nowhere with this aspect.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

As I said - WHICH version of the bible would you like me to use - because there are many different versions. There is no true translation.

Debatable - there are certainly some that are better than others.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Just because it wasn't considered heinous - doesn't mean that it was right. Hell Europe brought slavery to these shores and we're beat up constantly for our past - regardless of the fact that it was acceptable at the time. However - if god is so kind then he would have condemned slavery outright - just like he condemned MANY things with the ten commandments that had been acceptable. I think you are grasping at straws here.

Difficult question - and I don't know if I can really answer it. I agree that it isn't right, but in antiquity, it WAS a totally different thing than we knew in recent centuries... it was not institutionalized nor aimed world-wide at one group of people. I don't know why God didn't step in back then. From my perspective, I try not to sit in judgment on Him, although I can see that this perspective has little merit from your point of view. However, the passage of Scripture you brought up is about punishments for killing people or causing their deaths in various circumstances. In any passages which specifically address slavery or servitude, you might also see the consistent pattern of demands for more humane treatment.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I would be intested in hearing what christian religion you and Rian belong to.

We're already quite side-tracked, so I'm going to stop my 'non-marriage' postings in this thread. If you want to start a new one about slavery, do so. Since you ask that this not be split for it, I'll monitor for a bit - if the discussion gets back on track with marriage, I'll leave it intact, otherwise I'll split it.

So - for this last question, I'm happy to answer, but I'll either bump another thread where I posted about it, or I'll PM you a link to my denomination's web site.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Anyway, I too think being a good wife is an admiral goal, as, obviously, is being a good husband. I think marriage is a two-way street and both people have to put effort into it. My parents have a great marriage, and I really admire them. I'm going to try to follow their example.

What do you think has made your parents' marriage great? What have you observed that they do (or don't do)?

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

What do you think has made your parents' marriage great? What have you observed that they do (or don't do)?

Where to start... there's so many little things that I don't even notice but are probably important.

Most importantly though, the concept of us being a team is emphasized. Our family has always operated as a team and supported each other, and that's something our parents built. They also operate as a team. My brother and I never really bothered asking mom because dad said no, or vice versa, because that would never work. (If we ever did try we were quickly disappointed.) My parents made important decisions together, and were unified in fair treatment of my brother and I. Part of the reason is also that they're respectful people, but you have to earn it too. My parents have always treated each other, brother and I, with respect. As we earned more and more trust, being more mature and responsible, we earned more privledges. This ties into trust a lot.
Also, they communicate well. Though they've disagreed and argued, I've never once seen them totally lose their temper with each other. Plus, they love each other very much.
So one way to a happy marriage is trust, respect, communication, support, and love - by Nurvingiel's parents.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Disagreed - but we're going nowhere with this aspect.

As is your right - however I disagree with you on this point.

Debatable - there are certainly some that are better than others.

This is NOT debateable - there is NO true translation. You can think what you want on this matter as is your right. My right is to disagree. The closest thing is the Greek version I believe.

Difficult question - and I don't know if I can really answer it. I agree that it isn't right, but in antiquity, it WAS a totally different thing than we knew in recent centuries... it was not institutionalized nor aimed world-wide at one group of people. I don't know why God didn't step in back then. From my perspective, I try not to sit in judgment on Him, although I can see that this perspective has little merit from your point of view. However, the passage of Scripture you brought up is about punishments for killing people or causing their deaths in various circumstances. In any passages which specifically address slavery or servitude, you might also see the consistent pattern of demands for more humane treatment.

So god judges morality on the times we live in - huh? That's good to know.

We're already quite side-tracked, so I'm going to stop my 'non-marriage' postings in this thread. If you want to start a new one about slavery, do so. Since you ask that this not be split for it, I'll monitor for a bit - if the discussion gets back on track with marriage, I'll leave it intact, otherwise I'll split it.

No need to start a slavery thread. My comments aren't even about slavery - my comments are regarding the archaic nature of wives being subserviant to the husband and how that is just as outdated as the parts about slavery. You can defend the submission parts all you want - I think it's nothing but archaic nonsense that some people insist on clinging to.

So - for this last question, I'm happy to answer, but I'll either bump another thread where I posted about it, or I'll PM you a link to my denomination's web site.

Wow - it took three lines to tell me that you will direct me to where you have already said it - wouldn't it have been easier just to post it again. It would have taken at most 5 words.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Where to start... there's so many little things that I don't even notice but are probably important.

Most importantly though, the concept of us being a team is emphasized. ...

That's a wonderful description, Nurvi! Thanks for sharing that with us! I think your parents operate the same way my husband and I like to operate.

Here's something I'll add on - I think a good wife and a good husband actively look for ways to serve each other and express love to each other. For example, every night I bring a cold glass of water and put it on my husband's bedside table, because he likes that. Is he capable of doing this himself? Of COURSE he is - and that's why MY doing it is so loving to him! He kills spiders for me - am I capable of doing that for myself? Of course! But he knows I don't like spiders - so he does it for me, along with countless other things.

We had a marriage retreat a few years ago at our church, with the "survivor" theme. I forget what the original show's theme was, because I didn't watch it, but the t-shirt we got was a fun parody on that show. On the t-shirt is this : Survivor! Marriage adventure - outlove, outlast, outserve" I think that's a good attitude to have in a marriage.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

This is NOT debateable - there is NO true translation. You can think what you want on this matter as is your right. My right is to disagree. The closest thing is the Greek version I believe.

For anyone that doesn't know - the New Testament was written in Greek. The Greek version is not a translation. For the major English translations, the scholars go back to the original language - they don't re-translate from other translations.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

For anyone that doesn't know - the New Testament was written in Greek. The Greek version is not a translation. For the major English translations, the scholars go back to the original language - they don't re-translate from other translations.

And it still doesn't guarantee an "accurate" bible either. But the bible doesn't only consist of the new testament. Most of the bible is the old testement and there isn't much surviving that is original with that.

Anyway - still think the submission thing is an archaic hold over of the past. I wonder though - Valandil brings up a point about "it was the times they lived in". I wonder since slavery is consider heinous today and the excuse that the bible accepts slavery is that it was the times they lived in - maybe in todays times gay marriage, homosexuality, a woman being the same as a man is acceptable. If the bible only supported things because of the times that they lived in - maybe it goes for many other things people today cling onto.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

And it still doesn't guarantee an "accurate" bible either.

What does "accurate" mean to you? I'm not quite sure I understand how you're using it, and I'd like to.

[katya]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

What makes a good wife? I would think that a GOOD marriage is more important and for that it takes give and take - not damn submission by either person. It takes respect - and if one person is considered above the other - then that is hardly the recipe for mutual respect.

I am completely against the "submission" of the wife and think it's an archaic concept, but some people who cling to the bible seem to still support it.

Well, I for one am not trying to be submissive. If you knew me in person you wouldn't think that at all (not that I'm saying I know what you think about me now, I guess). I was just saying, er, thinking, about something I read from an old old magazine about how to be a "good wife" and it included things like "your husband will probably be tired from a long day at work, so you should have a nice hot meal ready for him," and things like that. The book itself (that the article was quoted in) then went on to say that that was the most sexist disrespectful thing ever, etc. etc. Now, I'm not saying that stereotypes and perfect little molds of what a good family is (hey, mine sure doesn't fit, but it's ok by me) are that great. However, what motivates me is a desire to make people happy. Is there anything wrong with having a hot meal ready for my future husband when he comes home? Or doing the dishes every night (which I do, by the way) and keeping the house clean? Or being considerate of his feelings, for that matter, which is pretty basic no matter who you're talking about? I'm not saying that everyone should have the same family structure, but it might not be bad for some people to go with the traditional model.

For the record, I absolutely do not want any kids. It's possible I'll change my mind, but I don't think I will. I'll probably get a good job myself. And there's no way in hell am I going to wear some stupid apron and be some model 50's housewife.

I think the bottom line is this guy, who I've known for years and I really like, I like the idea of being a person who could make him happy. Or whoever my husband turns out to be, if I even have one. If you love someone, (friend, family, whatever) you want to make them happy, right? I don't want to be submissive. I respect myself a lot too. I'm not comprimising my own values or anything, but I care about the people I love and so it makes me happy when they're happy.

Have I made any sense at all? I probably sound like a retard because I'm still just a kid. *sigh*

RÃ*an darling, thank you for your support. I suppose your ideas about submission could work for some people. Seems like your Christian ideas have made you pretty happy. And you're nice too- I like that.^^ And furthermore, some ideas that people call "sexist" or whatever have some scientific evidence to back them up too. I think I mentioned it earlier in this thread. I wish I could summarize that show in about an essay, but it's been so long... Maybe you could do some research and interpret it in your own arguments though. (Is it still conspiring if it's out in the open? ) Erm, I guess I haven't thought hard enough yet to say anything else interesting though.

EDIT: Yikes! There was a whole page I hadn't read yet! Oh ho, this if fun...what makes a good husband? He should be nice and respect me. He should care about my feelings as much as I care about him. And fix the house if it breaks! And... I guess that's all. Pretty vague, I suppose.

[Nurvingiel]

I'm going for the apron - when I bake I always seem to be wearing a dark coloured shirt and I get flour everywhere.

EDIT: I get what you're saying katya, and you don't sound silly at all! (I just thought this thread needed some levity. )

[Rían]

No, you've made a lot of sense, katya sweetie! I agree - what's wrong with having a hot meal ready for your husband? Now what IS wrong, IMO, is having it ready out of anything but love - IOW, doing it out of fear, or legalism, or a feeling of obligation, or a bad type of submission.

Katya, Nurvi asked me to talk about what I understand Biblical submission is (because I've studied it) over on the religion or theology thread (forgot which one). I can't get in any long posts until next week, but I'd love for you to join into the discussion there!

And you do NOT sound like a retard - stop it! You sound like a thoughtful and considerate person. And that's a great thing, in my books

[Rían]

I don't like aprons, altho I like baking. But I wore one when I made Christmas cookies this year - it was an all-day fun event, and it IS pretty practical, after all! Esp. since we were working with food coloring!