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Old 03-30-2001, 08:53 AM   #41
easterlinge
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Re: Arnor and Gondor

"Sauron didn't command the variety of servants Morgoth had, but Tolkien wrote somewhere (the reference escapes me) that Sauron was, at the end of the Second Age, more personally powerful than Melkor had been at the end of the First Age, but that Sauron had become more militarily powerful at the end of the Third Age than he had been at the end of the Second Age."

Wow. The Ring made Sauron that powerful at the 2nd Age? But I seem to recall an article of yours saying Morgoth dissipated himself creating various creatures like Dragons, and generally permeating the very matter ("hroa" or something) of Arda. Control freak he is! So maybe Sauron's personal power didn't approach that of Melkor at his height.

Hey, that means if Elendil and Gil-GAlad could throw down Sauron in personal combat, they could wrestle Morgoth himself!!

Hmmm.... Beleriand was more "polluted" with Morgoth's essence than anywhere else? And thus more conducive to the practice of magic than anywhere else? So that some of the magical feats of Beleriand is not possible elsewhere? THe place most conducive to magic after the 1st Age would be the Grey Havens, which is adjacent to drowned Beleriand? Just following a train of thought that occured to me. Also some traces of Valaric power remaining in the seas over lost Beleriand...

Militarily Sauron was more powerful in the 3rd Age than in the 2nd, as you say Tolkien said. But was he stronger militarily in the War of the Ring than Morgoth at the start of the War of Wrath? The Silmarillion mentioned Orcs so plentiful that Anfauglith could scarce contain them, and dragons that threw back the Valar's forces.
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Old 03-30-2001, 09:09 AM   #42
Michael Martinez
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Re: Arnor and Gondor

Quote:
"Sauron didn't command the variety of servants Morgoth had, but Tolkien wrote somewhere (the reference escapes me) that Sauron was, at the end of the Second Age, more personally powerful than Melkor had been at the end of the First Age, but that Sauron had become more militarily powerful at the end of the Third Age than he had been at the end of the Second Age."

Wow. The Ring made Sauron that powerful at the 2nd Age? But I seem to recall an article of yours saying Morgoth dissipated himself creating various creatures like Dragons, and generally permeating the very matter ("hroa" or something) of Arda. Control freak he is! So maybe Sauron's personal power didn't approach that of Melkor at his height.

Hey, that means if Elendil and Gil-GAlad could throw down Sauron in personal combat, they could wrestle Morgoth himself!!
Maybe. Sauron attacked Gil-galad, however. It's not like Gil-galad went looking to meet Sauron in personal combat. Tolkien doesn't indicate what Gil-galad and Elendil thought they would be able to do, once they had defeated Sauron's armies. It's an interesting question.

This chart gives a crude representation of how Sauron's power increased, versus Morgoth's decrease in power.

http://www.xenite.org/forums/images/...us_morgoth.jpg

Quote:
Hmmm.... Beleriand was more "polluted" with Morgoth's essence than anywhere else? And thus more conducive to the practice of magic than anywhere else? So that some of the magical feats of Beleriand is not possible elsewhere? THe place most conducive to magic after the 1st Age would be the Grey Havens, which is adjacent to drowned Beleriand? Just following a train of thought that occured to me. Also some traces of Valaric power remaining in the seas over lost Beleriand...
I don't know if we could say that. The greatest Elven magic worked in the Second Age occurred in Eregion, where the Rings of Power were forged. Melkor instilled his power throughout all of Arda, or nearly all of it.

Quote:
Militarily Sauron was more powerful in the 3rd Age than in the 2nd, as you say Tolkien said. But was he stronger militarily in the War of the Ring than Morgoth at the start of the War of Wrath? The Silmarillion mentioned Orcs so plentiful that Anfauglith could scarce contain them, and dragons that threw back the Valar's forces.
I used to think so, but now I'm not so sure. I'd have to find the passage again and study it. I suppose that it doesn't make much sense to argue that Sauron had that kind of military power at the end of the Third Age. But then, there was no hope of defeating him militarily.
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Old 03-30-2001, 09:10 AM   #43
Michael Martinez
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Re: Arnor and Gondor

Well, the lines didn't come out the way I hoped. Sorry about that. But Morgoth's line is the descending one (which was red when I drew it) and Sauron's line is the ascending one (which was blue when I drew it).
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Old 03-30-2001, 11:23 PM   #44
Lief Erikson
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Morgoth, Fingolfin, Gil-galad, and Elendil.

And were they in the same place?

It's my opinion that Morgoth's army at the beginning of the War of Wrath was bigger and stronger than Sauron's horde. He had dragons and Balrogs under his command, plus millions of orcs and lesser troops.

But there isn't any real proof either way, it's all a matter of opinion, so until someone finds something factual to support their theory, I think that particular discussion can probably be dropped for the time being.

And there's one thing I'd like to know. Are you guys thinking of Morgoth's power the wrong way? Because I think there is a difference between their phisical prowess and their armies and military might. You were speaking of when they defeated Sauron, would they be capable of beating Morgoth himself in personal combat? It's his defense magic and his personal strength that you're talking about now, not his military might and outward power. He'd probably be just as tough at fighting Gil-galad and Elendil as he was when he fought Fingolfin. I can't see that because he lost a lot of military might, his own abilities in that field would be deteriorated.
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Old 04-01-2001, 11:59 PM   #45
easterlinge
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Re: Morgoth, Fingolfin, Gil-galad, and Elendil.

Hey Mike, that graph is interesting. But I thought Sauron's powers would show a jump or surge upwards when he forged the Ring, followed by a more gradual increase as he learned to wield its full powers.

So the graph would show a steady increase first, then a jump up, then a more gradual but steeper increase than before.

I've been thinking (Oh no!! I'm actually thinking!!), whta does the Ring actually do? I have a vague notion of it enhancing the powers of command and domination, and reading the minds of his enemies , but Sauron can do that already. He saw through Beren and Finrod's disguises.

The foundations of Barad-Dur was made with the Ring so maybe it has powers to move the earth (but I really don't know). THe Brown Lands was perhaps blasted by the power of the Ring, maybe. Mordor was perhaps another result of the Ring, with accelerated decay and corruption, sort of Elven-Ring working in reverse.
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Old 04-02-2001, 12:18 AM   #46
Michael Martinez
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Re: Morgoth, Fingolfin, Gil-galad, and Elendil.

I've been struggling with a sore shoulder for several weeks (I keep reinjuring it), so doing fancy graphics and artwork, never a forte of mine in the first place, is out of the question. The purpose of the chart is really to emphasize where they ended up, rather than how (or how fast) they got there.

Tolkien wrote quite a bit about the One Ring. I've incorporated some of his thoughts into a few of my Suite101 essays (can't think of which ones). Basically, Sauron was trying to make himself stronger. The domination of other wills was something he had long been engaged in anyway. But realized that if he invested a great part of his strength in an external object, he would be able to wield it more effectively.

Elrond's statement about the foundations of Barad-dur may be a bit misleading. Construction on Barad-dur began before the Elves made the Rings of Power. However, the One Ring possessed the raw power of Sauron (most of it), and therefore Elrond may have been implicitly acknowledging that the power which had been used to enhance the foundations of Barad-dur had been transferred to the Ring.

I think the Brown Lands were made brown simply by Sauron's setting fire to the region. That was what he did to Eriador in the War of the Elves and Sauron, after all.
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Old 04-03-2001, 12:18 AM   #47
easterlinge
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Re: Morgoth, Fingolfin, Gil-galad, and Elendil.

I remember my Dad hurting his shoulder handling a 5 gallon container of water. It hurt for 2 months, and he was rather grumpy, especially after we forbade him to drive the car, which had no power steering. He sought out a masseur, but even the masseur said he had no art for torn ligament, the only thing to do was rest and avoid straining it.

Hope you're not feeling rather crotchety at the moment...

"
I think the Brown Lands were made brown simply by Sauron's setting fire to the region. That was what he did to Eriador in the War of the Elves and Sauron, after all. "

Eriador recovered though, unlike the Brown Lands. Unless you meant Eregion not Eriador.

Did Sauron know the Istari were Maiar? Gandalf strove to avoid revealing himself to Sauron, but Saruman rather blew it.
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Old 04-03-2001, 12:40 AM   #48
Michael Martinez
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Re: Morgoth, Fingolfin, Gil-galad, and Elendil.

Portions of Eriador did not recover their treescape, however. Minhiriath became what Tolkien described as both a desert and a plains region. It was essentially a grassland, and sometimes the word "desert" is applied to a grassy region. Depends on the grass, thickness of it, etc.

Poland created a desert in the Middle Ages through deforestation. Some of the wildlife actually adapted to conditions there, and a few years ago conservationists were concerned about losing the desert habitat to development.

I don't know if Sauron knew the Istari were Maiar. He may have guessed they were. It's not like men naturally lived that long or wielded that kind of power.
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Old 04-10-2001, 02:54 AM   #49
easterlinge
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The Power of the Ring

"Elrond's statement about the foundations of Barad-dur may be a bit misleading. "

I seem to recall a part of the story of Luthien & Beren, when Luthien went to Tol Sirion (which was under Sauron's control) with Huan the Hound to rescue the poor guy from Sauron. After Huan beat wolf-Sauron, Luthien forced Sauron to reveal the word that bound the stones of the stronghold together.

Luthien then spoke that word (or used it in a spell) and the stronghold collapsed into the river, "and Sirion spumed in sudden smoke".

Seems perhaps the Elves and Sauron were in the habit of strengthening their buildings with magic. Maybe Sauron decided to reinforce Barad-dur's foundations with Ring-magic. Towers are pretty tricky, as the Leaning Tower of Pisa would attest. The "Leaning Dark Tower of Mordor" would have been embarrassing, if not downright hazardous!! ;-)

What do you think?
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Old 04-11-2001, 12:04 AM   #50
easterlinge
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Re: The Power of the Ring

This thread is getting longish. Should I start a new one?
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