Shadowfax

[Elfhelm]

See what YOU did? By posting irrelevant stuff like: "you're right", "that's cool", "that's out of my depth", and "wow", you killed the thread. That is spam. Stop doing it. If you don't have something to add, just read and move on. It's not about YOU. It's about Shadowfax. Comment on Shadowfax or move on. Thanks.

Now back to the topic...

So Shadowfax is one of the mearas who are descended from Felaróf, who I have seen described as a white horse. Now I have maintained above that white is not a horse color. But in fact a horse can be white if it is covered by a full body sock. Let me explain that. The pigmentation of the skin of most horses that apear white is actually black. You can see the skin color on the nose. However, there are a variety of patches of unpigmented skin that have names, like a star or a sock. If a horse has absolutely no pigment at all, that is an albino, and it is probably a weak reature. But it is possible for a horse to have a sock patch that covers such a large area that the black skin can only be seen at the edges. I have heard that such coloration has occurred, but I've never seen a picture of one.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

I think we were discussing what color Shadowfax appears to be, rather than the technicalities of horse color. While your posts have been quite enlightening and I have learned a lot about horse color, Elfhelm, and it is appreciated, there are horses that look white, and I think that is what we were talking about. . .

forgive me if I am wrong, and please refrain from murdering me, or causing me to choke on my water. . .

[Elfhelm]

Wel, I think when it's a question of what an author meant by certain words, it goes to the question of what the author knew? So I wonder if Tolkien knew that horses that appear white are called grey by breeders.

And since the Rohirrim speak basically old english and fax means hair and sceadu means shadow, what does that mean the color is?

All I know is that he shines like silver in the wind.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

He might not have known. Just as he might not have realized that potatos are a New World plant, and therefore might not be in ME, but then again who cares, it's ME, not Europe, and it's fantasy, so who cares, except that it has been theorized that ME is based on Europe, so...I'll stop now, shall I?

[Elfhelm]

I have to throw this into the mix:

"Probably every writer making a secondary world, a fantasy, every sub-creator, wishes in some measure to be a real maker, or hopes that he is drawing on reality: hopes that the peculiar quality of this secondary world (if not all the details) are derived from Reality, or are flowing into it. " from On Fairy-Tales.

So he has taters, and calls days of the week by english names, and they smoke tobacco, and all sorts of other details derived from reality.

So I hope someone who knows the biographical material better than me can say if he drew the details of horse coloring from the reality of the breeders. This would make the word choice of silver a bit more significant. Or did he draw his horse coloration from the more common understanding?

Because the upshot of it is, Shadowfax and Felarof would be called white by most people, or silver or grey by a breeder, I think.

[azalea]

In regard to your earlier post regarding horse hair/ skin color, does that relate at all to the Lippanzaner (sp) stallions, how they are born grey or black and then become "white"?

[Elf Girl]

Albino horses are often referred to as "white" since they have no black hairs at all.

[cian]

"And Gandalf, too, was now riding on his tall grey horse, ..." RotK

'Grey' for Shadowfax here (and obviously the 'silver' refs we know of) ... but also note that Tolkien uses the word "white" to describe Asfaloth and Snowmane for examples. While I'm aware of the "horsespeak" terminology, we see Tolkien using the word white in certain 'horse descriptions' (including 'white' to describe an earlier horse of Gandalf's in the LotR drafts).

Hasufel was described as a 'dark-grey horse'.

[Elf Girl]

They could all be albino...

[Menelvagor]

Well, Tolkien was writing for ordinary people, not horse breeders. Even if he knew the proper terminology, he would've probably used the more common names to make it more understandable.

[Elfhelm]

Originally posted by cian
"And Gandalf, too, was now riding on his tall grey horse, ..." RotK

'Grey' for Shadowfax here (and obviously the 'silver' refs we know of) ... but also note that Tolkien uses the word "white" to describe Asfaloth and Snowmane for examples. While I'm aware of the "horsespeak" terminology, we see Tolkien using the word white in certain 'horse descriptions' (including 'white' to describe an earlier horse of Gandalf's in the LotR drafts).

Hasufel was described as a 'dark-grey horse'.

I accept that JRRT used common names for colors then. But even among the range of greys there is a lot of room for variation. Here's text from en English equestrian site:

http://www.equine-world.co.uk/about_horses/colours.htm

"Grey: There are various types of grey with some being very pale, almost white with very little grey showing to others being very dark and obvious grey. The mane and tail are grey. Grey horses are born solid coloured eg black, brown, etc and the coat develops into grey as it becomes mature."

But I imagine Shadowfax was a dark grey.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

I imagine a lighter gray. ..