Engineering wonders

[Earniel]

I was re-reading 'Tuor and his coming to Gondolin' in UT just the other day up to the part of the Gate of the Noldor. It suddenly struck me what an amazing feat of engineering and architecture it actually was, constructing a walkway next to an underground river. It may have been just an instrument for Tolkien to get Tuor where he wanted, as it is never spoken of again, but it makes you wonder what other (perhaps untold of) little miracles Elves (and Dwarves) constructed in the long ages of the world.

In the same chapter Fëanorean lamps are mentioned. These are curious little things too if you think of it. While not architectural, the skill to make something like that must have been bordering both art and science. It's telling the skill to make them did not survive on the eastern shores.

So what our your favourite (often underrated) wonders of engineering from Middle-earth?

[Midge]

I was always awed by the idea of Moria. That they carved entire cities out of rock...

Of course, I could be a little swayed by the movies, but still. And kind of the same idea with Minas Tirith, but that was more around a mountain than within it.

[Earniel]

Khazad-dum is of course the wonder of Engineering in Middle-earth after the War of Wrath. I admit, the movies had some wonderful imagery, yet there is much in Tolkien's work to grasp at how awesome Khazad-dum must have looked in its heyday. It spanned the entire mountain-range for one. And not just a measly tunnel at either end either. Giant gates and hallways.

[Midge]

Yes, and to imagine how deep it must have gone too... to wake up something that had been bound/banished by the Elves of old!

[GrayMouser]

I didn't like the Great Hall in Moria in the movies; too crowded with pillars- not to mention gecko-orcs- but I thought the statues of Elendil and Isildur guarding the entrance to Gondor were well done.

Gave perspective on the power of Gondor at is height.

[Midge]

Oh, yes.. I'd completely forgotten about those, but they always awed me also.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Khazad-dum is of course the wonder of Engineering in Middle-earth after the War of Wrath. I admit, the movies had some wonderful imagery, yet there is much in Tolkien's work to grasp at how awesome Khazad-dum must have looked in its heyday. It spanned the entire mountain-range for one. And not just a measly tunnel at either end either. Giant gates and hallways.

I gather - even from the books - that most of Khazad-dum was on the west side of the mountain range, and that the east primarily WAS tunnels to connect with the lands beyond (initially Eregion), and probably also to some mining works. I've thought that the Dwarves great halls and dwelling places were all to the west side.

BTW - this is tangential, and if it takes a life of it's own may merit a split-off - but a question: Appendix B: Tale of Years tells us that in 1697 of the Second Age - the Gates of Moria were shut. This is the same time that Sauron's forces laid waste to Eregion. With this mention here, do you think that the Gates of Moria (particularly the west Gate - used by the fellowship to enter) were basically kept shut from this point on? Certainly some comings and goings - since the Dwarves were in there for another 3700 years. But what do you think: largely closed? Or re-opened for times of peace (particularly most of the Third Age)? If largely closed, I suspect that most traffic would be on the east side, and that those coming from the west would approach over the Redhorn Pass.

Besides - if they needed to approach (enter?) Moria, and if it WERE centered at the east entrance, I suspect that most Men and Elves would be far more comfortable with a mountain pass than a long tunnel walk. I venture to guess that the Men of Arnor/Cardolan and those of the Vales of Anduin would have an opportunity for a brisk trade of their sheep, cattle, hogs, chicken - as well as vegetables, grain, dairy produce. The Dwarves probably grew some of their own within a few miles of the east entrance.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Valandil

BTW - this is tangential, and if it takes a life of it's own may merit a split-off - but a question: Appendix B: Tale of Years tells us that in 1697 of the Second Age - the Gates of Moria were shut. This is the same time that Sauron's forces laid waste to Eregion. With this mention here, do you think that the Gates of Moria (particularly the west Gate - used by the fellowship to enter) were basically kept shut from this point on? Certainly some comings and goings - since the Dwarves were in there for another 3700 years. But what do you think: largely closed? Or re-opened for times of peace (particularly most of the Third Age)? If largely closed, I suspect that most traffic would be on the east side, and that those coming from the west would approach over the Redhorn Pass.

Shut but not barred, I think, possibly with a curfew. That way everyone could still get in if they knew the password, which was written above the doors, so really, the Dwarves did leave the key in the door so to speak. The doors could operate on their own accord, so there didn't need to be a gatekeeper. Although I do not exclude the possibility of guards. (People often forget to close doors and gates after them, why would stone doors be any different? I suspect the Dwarves had guards on the gates just because they didn't like the constant draft when late visitors forgot to close the door behind them again. )

Besides - if they needed to approach (enter?) Moria, and if it WERE centered at the east entrance, I suspect that most Men and Elves would be far more comfortable with a mountain pass than a long tunnel walk. I venture to guess that the Men of Arnor/Cardolan and those of the Vales of Anduin would have an opportunity for a brisk trade of their sheep, cattle, hogs, chicken - as well as vegetables, grain, dairy produce. The Dwarves probably grew some of their own within a few miles of the east entrance.

Could be a seasonable thing. Many passes are closed in winter, but traffic would be able to pass continually underground. And not all passes are suitable for wagons or lifestock. It'd be interesting to know if the Dwarves asked for toll for those merely passing through, if there were people making such use of the Dwarven home. I believe there were passages in HoME of Galadriel travelling through Khazad-dum, but I don't remember if even in those drafts Tolkien meant for the passing through Khazad-dum to be a regular occurance for some, or that Galadriel was only allowed to do so once since she had some friendship with the Dwarves.

[Matoro]

Barad-dûr was really one of the most amazing wonders of Middle-Earth - it was said to be second only to Angband, and Angband was carved by a vala to the mountains itself. Sauron had to build entire thing to ashy wasteland (and it was described to be built from iron, steel and adamant), so he couldn't use natural mountain as a part of his fortress, like Minas Anor and Minas Ithil had used. So basically he built the biggest fortress after Angband from iron and steel to wasteland.

Also, a curious thing... Sauron began building Barad-dûr in around S.A. 1000, but it was said that he laid its foundations with The One Ring (and thus it fell when The One Ring was destroyed). So how could he start building but place foundations only 600 years later?

Well, there is a theory about that.

Speaking of dark fortresses, did Angband have any aboveground-parts? Or was it just enormous underground fortress below Thangondrim, a bit like Moria?