Biggest surprize link to LOTR?

Cirdan · 03-06-2002, 09:41 PM

For me it had to be the third Elven ring which Gandalf posessed. It must have been the key to defeating the Balrog. I have read the LOTR several times and I remember no memtion of it.

There was a great deal of info in the Silmarillion. Just the geography was challenging. I hope someone takes up the task of creating a map of the Second Age duriong the reign of the Numenorean Kings. I have found several excellent repos of the original map. I still have the Silmarillion map fold out even though my copy is 25 years old. I stilil find it lacking in some parts of the story.

Vanimdil · 03-07-2002, 12:31 AM

One thing that especially fascinated me was finding out about Gandalf's origins. In Lord of the Rings he is something of a mystery but in The Silmarillion the reasons for his power are much clearer. It's especially interesting to compare the hobbits' perspective of "an old man in a battered hat" with the fact that he is a messenger of the gods. It's another point made about "all that is gold does not glitter."

Cirdan · 03-07-2002, 01:04 AM

Yes, it was quite a finish to the book when you read about the comimg of the "wizards" from Valinor. It added yet another of the many faces of Mithrandir. He is a travelling magician, a great wizard, an old friend, a councellor to Kings and Great Elves, slayer of Balrogs, and at last we find, a messenger of Valinor and a ring bearer. No wonder his character is copied so much!

Renille · 03-07-2002, 01:38 AM

For me, it was learning the origins of Frodo's "star-glass." I had never asked myself what or who Earendil was before.

markedel · 03-07-2002, 07:27 PM

There is a map of Numenor in Unfinished Tales.

Elvet · 03-07-2002, 08:17 PM

Learning about Cirdan and the Grey havens in the Silmarillion
really helped me understand more about LotR. It was always an unanswered question as to why and where the fellowship went at the end of Return of the King.

Cirdan · 03-07-2002, 08:26 PM

That's why I picked Cirdan as a alias. I want to explore that part of the middle earth history series to better understand Cirdan's role and the history of the rings.

Thrain · 03-07-2002, 08:46 PM

Hey Cirdan,
Its me Thrain remember.
I haven't finished the Silmarillion yet but it is so awesome up to the first 100 something pages. I just started yesterday. it is awesome.

markedel · 03-07-2002, 09:16 PM

Wait till the fifth battle-that in of itself could make a book, yet all we get is a chapter.

Cirdan · 03-07-2002, 09:45 PM

That was my only complaint, if you could call it that, was the some what unbalanced telling of certain episodes. Turin was covered well, but other parts critical to the whole story got short shriff. CT may not be the editor dad was. I'll need to read HoMe before I pass judgement.

Good progress, thrain. Keep it up!

markedel · 03-07-2002, 10:52 PM

I haven't read much of HoME, but from what I understand the Silmarillion in terms of story length, is about the same as the extant writings on the subjects.

Renille · 03-08-2002, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cirdan
CT may not be the editor dad was. I'll need to read HoMe before I pass judgement.

!

That's the impression I'm getting from UT...but as you said, I won't judge him until later. (But really...the Galadriel and Celeborn chapter could have been made into so much more...all right, now I'm not on topic. woopsies.)

olsonm · 03-08-2002, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Renille

(...all right, now I'm not on topic. woopsies.)

Now That's annoying. heehee

So bad, but it feels so good!

Ñólendil · 03-08-2002, 01:48 AM

Gandalf's Ring is actually seen in the Grey Havens chapter, and it's explained in the Appendices. I suppose it's full signifigance isn't really glimpsed until you read Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, though.

I don't recall what link was to me most surprising. I sort of read a lot about the Silmarillion before I read it itself, like afro-elf seems to have done (though he had a much better grasp on the story before he read it than I did).

I'm going to have to go with I call the Great Genealogy. Aragorn's ancestry is phenomenal.

Cirdan · 03-08-2002, 12:05 PM

Aragorn's ancestry is a good link. There was too much esle going on in the LotR to get much of a feeling for the basis of his right to be king. The lineage is given but how it makes him sole heir is a bit hazy. I remembered references to the Numenorean kings but I didn't make the link. I may have to read the LotR again , now that I've read the Sil.

Curandir · 03-09-2002, 03:24 AM

A couple things that have always wonder about the relationship of the Silmarillion and LOTR is the great detail Tolkien takes in LOTR in describing Middle Earth and all its inhabitants. Such as the Ents, Hobbits, a few elvin races, and even some of the more evil parts of Sauron's hords. I suppose if he had done this in Sil he might have had a work rivaling the size of Encyclopaedia Britannica. I remember the first time reading Sil thinking I would find out exactly what and why the Ents exsist, no such gratification. They are mentioned but very breifly as almost an afterthought. The other thing that I have always thougth amazing about Sil is that LOTR takes up such a small part of the big picture in that book. I suppose it would have been ridiculous to go over the history of the Ring saga again, but it seems such a crutial part of Middle Earth in LOTR. Just some things I remember thinking about the first time reading the Silmarillion. Oh yea, one more thing, The Ungoliant, what happened to her? And am I correct in assuming that the spider Frodo and Sam faced was one of her brood?

Elvet · 03-09-2002, 09:12 AM

I thought there was an explanation in the Sil. about the Ents.
Yavanna came to realise that men would potentially be defilers of the forests (and her creations). Iluvatar then made protectors and guardians of the forests - the Ents. But I don't think they were given that name in the Sil.

Thrain · 03-09-2002, 09:27 AM

Elvet and Curandir I totally agree.
I mean the only real mention of them is in the beginning and it doesn't even mention there name. However, I thought the Bestiary gave a fairly good description of Ents and their history

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 03-09-2002, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Curandir
Oh yea, one more thing, The Ungoliant, what happened to her? And am I correct in assuming that the spider Frodo and Sam faced was one of her brood?

That's correct. Shelob was one of Ungoliant's children. As for the fate of Ungoliant, the Silmarillion says that after the inccodent with Morgoth that she was never heard from or seen again, but it was believed that she may have in her great hunger, devoured herself.

Finrod Felagund · 03-18-2002, 03:36 PM

By the way the ents are mentioned twice in the Sil. Once talking about their creation and the second time when the help Beren, Dior and the Green Elves defeat the dwarves returning from the destruction of Doriath.

03-06-2002, 09:41 PM	#1
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Biggest surprize link to LOTR? For me it had to be the third Elven ring which Gandalf posessed. It must have been the key to defeating the Balrog. I have read the LOTR several times and I remember no memtion of it. There was a great deal of info in the Silmarillion. Just the geography was challenging. I hope someone takes up the task of creating a map of the Second Age duriong the reign of the Numenorean Kings. I have found several excellent repos of the original map. I still have the Silmarillion map fold out even though my copy is 25 years old. I stilil find it lacking in some parts of the story.

03-07-2002, 01:38 AM	#4
Renille Elven Lady of Speed-posting Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the cheese state Posts: 988	For me, it was learning the origins of Frodo's "star-glass." I had never asked myself what or who Earendil was before. __________________ Oh the thinks you can think! Think and wonder and dream...far and wide as you dare! When your thinks have run dry, in the blink of an eye, there's another world there... (from Seussical the Musical. Listen to it...watch it...really.)

03-07-2002, 07:27 PM	#5
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	There is a map of Numenor in Unfinished Tales. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-07-2002, 08:17 PM	#6
Elvet Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Orillia, Ontario Posts: 221	Learning about Cirdan and the Grey havens in the Silmarillion really helped me understand more about LotR. It was always an unanswered question as to why and where the fellowship went at the end of Return of the King. __________________ "But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know."

03-07-2002, 08:26 PM	#7
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	That's why I picked Cirdan as a alias. I want to explore that part of the middle earth history series to better understand Cirdan's role and the history of the rings. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

03-07-2002, 12:31 AM	#2
Vanimdil Enting Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 51	One thing that especially fascinated me was finding out about Gandalf's origins. In Lord of the Rings he is something of a mystery but in The Silmarillion the reasons for his power are much clearer. It's especially interesting to compare the hobbits' perspective of "an old man in a battered hat" with the fact that he is a messenger of the gods. It's another point made about "all that is gold does not glitter."

03-07-2002, 01:04 AM	#3
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Yes, it was quite a finish to the book when you read about the comimg of the "wizards" from Valinor. It added yet another of the many faces of Mithrandir. He is a travelling magician, a great wizard, an old friend, a councellor to Kings and Great Elves, slayer of Balrogs, and at last we find, a messenger of Valinor and a ring bearer. No wonder his character is copied so much!

03-07-2002, 08:46 PM	#8
Thrain Enting Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Right now I am currently living in Rivendell Posts: 52	Hey Cirdan, Its me Thrain remember. I haven't finished the Silmarillion yet but it is so awesome up to the first 100 something pages. I just started yesterday. it is awesome. __________________ Never mettle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good ketchup.

03-07-2002, 09:16 PM	#9
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Wait till the fifth battle-that in of itself could make a book, yet all we get is a chapter. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-07-2002, 09:45 PM	#10
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	That was my only complaint, if you could call it that, was the some what unbalanced telling of certain episodes. Turin was covered well, but other parts critical to the whole story got short shriff. CT may not be the editor dad was. I'll need to read HoMe before I pass judgement. Good progress, thrain. Keep it up! __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 03-07-2002 at 09:48 PM.

03-07-2002, 10:52 PM	#11
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	I haven't read much of HoME, but from what I understand the Silmarillion in terms of story length, is about the same as the extant writings on the subjects. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-08-2002, 01:48 AM	#14
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Gandalf's Ring is actually seen in the Grey Havens chapter, and it's explained in the Appendices. I suppose it's full signifigance isn't really glimpsed until you read Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, though. I don't recall what link was to me most surprising. I sort of read a lot about the Silmarillion before I read it itself, like afro-elf seems to have done (though he had a much better grasp on the story before he read it than I did). I'm going to have to go with I call the Great Genealogy. Aragorn's ancestry is phenomenal. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

03-08-2002, 12:05 PM	#15
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Aragorn's ancestry is a good link. There was too much esle going on in the LotR to get much of a feeling for the basis of his right to be king. The lineage is given but how it makes him sole heir is a bit hazy. I remembered references to the Numenorean kings but I didn't make the link. I may have to read the LotR again , now that I've read the Sil. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

03-09-2002, 03:24 AM	#16
Curandir Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 28	A couple things that have always wonder about the relationship of the Silmarillion and LOTR is the great detail Tolkien takes in LOTR in describing Middle Earth and all its inhabitants. Such as the Ents, Hobbits, a few elvin races, and even some of the more evil parts of Sauron's hords. I suppose if he had done this in Sil he might have had a work rivaling the size of Encyclopaedia Britannica. I remember the first time reading Sil thinking I would find out exactly what and why the Ents exsist, no such gratification. They are mentioned but very breifly as almost an afterthought. The other thing that I have always thougth amazing about Sil is that LOTR takes up such a small part of the big picture in that book. I suppose it would have been ridiculous to go over the history of the Ring saga again, but it seems such a crutial part of Middle Earth in LOTR. Just some things I remember thinking about the first time reading the Silmarillion. Oh yea, one more thing, The Ungoliant, what happened to her? And am I correct in assuming that the spider Frodo and Sam faced was one of her brood? __________________ ..."the powerful play goes on and we all may contribute a verse"

03-09-2002, 09:12 AM	#17
Elvet Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Orillia, Ontario Posts: 221	I thought there was an explanation in the Sil. about the Ents. Yavanna came to realise that men would potentially be defilers of the forests (and her creations). Iluvatar then made protectors and guardians of the forests - the Ents. But I don't think they were given that name in the Sil. __________________ "But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know."

03-09-2002, 09:27 AM	#18
Thrain Enting Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Right now I am currently living in Rivendell Posts: 52	Elvet and Curandir I totally agree. I mean the only real mention of them is in the beginning and it doesn't even mention there name. However, I thought the Bestiary gave a fairly good description of Ents and their history __________________ Never mettle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good ketchup.

03-18-2002, 03:36 PM	#20
Finrod Felagund King of Nargothrond Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada! eh? Posts: 2,002	By the way the ents are mentioned twice in the Sil. Once talking about their creation and the second time when the help Beren, Dior and the Green Elves defeat the dwarves returning from the destruction of Doriath. __________________ "THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!"

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