Beren and the Silmaril

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

Eldar includes those of the Teleri that started and quit the great journey, the Nandor as well as the Sindar.

According to The Lord of the Rings however, in Appendix F: 'The Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the elven-folk of Mirkwood and Lórien; but their languages do not appear in this history, of which all of the Elvish names and words are of Eldarin form.' Most of the elven-folk of Mirkwood and Lórien were 'East-elves' and their languages do not seem to be classed as Eldarin. And later, same source: '... and Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of days (save the Sindar only).'

I note CJRT's interesting (and more recent than Silmarillion) entry for Eldar as published in The Children of Húrin: 'Eldar The Elves of the Great Journey out of the East to Beleriand.' This fits in fine with the Eldar or 'West-elves' of The Lord of the Rings.

In any event, to compare apples to apples, so to speak: the Three Unions (as revised for the second edition) in Appendix A concerns the Edain and the Eldar -- and according to the same book (Appendix F), the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lórien are not considered Eldar.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Regardless of their different language, the Nandor were by definition Eldar.
To the source:
SIL, pg 309, cahrt of "The sudering of the Elves
Nandor are under Teleri are under Eldar
underneath Nandor (and Sindar and Laiquendi) is the caption "Umanyar, The Eldar who were not of Aman

SIL, index (which also seems to be a glossary) pg 326
Eldar ... (orignally) "all the Elves" (as called by Orome), Later "...the Elves of the Three Kindreds (Vanyar, Noldor, Teleri) who set out on the freat westward march from Cuivienen (whether or not they remained in Middle-Earth)..."

SIL, index, page 342:
"the Nandor were those of the Teleri who refused to cross the Misty Mountains...."

SIL, Index, pg 348
"Silvan Elves ... they appear to have been in origin those Nandorian Elves who never passed west of the Misty Mountains"

SIL, index, pg 350:
Teleri The third and greatest of the three hosts of the Eldar ... the Sindar and Nandor were Telerin..."

[Galin]

Yes, but that's all unpublished text (not published by the author himself).

Concerning the matter raised by Legolas (the legend of Elven-blood in connection to Dol Amroth) and the passage regarding the Three Unions: if the legend is true, the Elf who married a mortal is implied to be a Silvan Elf of Lórien: 'It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still once can see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water.' And Appendix B: '1981 Many of the Silvan Elves of Lórien flee south. Amroth and Nimrodel are lost.'

When the three unions and the descriptions from Appendix F are considered -- noting that the former passage was altered by Tolkien for the second edition to read Eldar rather than Elves -- a natural enough association is that a Silvan, non-eldarin East-elf is connected with the legend. This works well enough even with the late text Amroth And Nimrodel (1969 or later). Amroth says that passage Over Sea: '... is granted also now to any of those who made the Great Journey, even if they did not come in ages past to the shores and have not yet beheld the Blessed Land.'

If we plug in The Lord of the Rings here, Amroth might be saying: even if one is not of the Eldar... or, looking at the 'Mithrellas note' from Unfinished Tales, where Tolkien distinguishes Mithrellas as not being of the High Elves or the Grey but of the 'lesser Silvan Race', this fits too I think -- as not being of the High Elves or the Grey basically meant not being one of the Eldar or West-elves.

Tolkien also wrote that any who began the Great Journey were certainly Eldar (Christopher Tolkien did not invent the idea for The Silmarillion of course), however he did not always think so (see The Lhammas IIRC), and he did not publish this in any case. One could attempt to explain how everything Tolkien wrote concerning the term Eldar fits here, but for myself, although I have thought about it, in any event I don't see a great need to do that; or at least I see no problem with the approach I've taken.



Whenever the three unions comes up, often enough so does the Mithrellas legend -- and often enough along with this, also the 'definition' of Eldar as anyone who began the Great March. But why not bring up what Tolkien himself published here? which works better with respect to this matter in my opinion.

[Lefty Scaevola]

LoTR can hardly be a considered source regarding the Nandor, since they are not mentioned therein. Nor will you get very far arguing that the SIL is not the best source for the material which it covers, and LoTR does not (particularly inside The Silmarillion subforum). But, we cannot be confident that Mithrellas was of Nandorin descent, Since Silvan also included the Avari who blended into their culture, and by the time of Amroth many Avari had moved into Lorien and Mirkwood, particularly during the War of Elves and Sauron in the 2nd age.

[Alcuin]

The essay “Quendi and Eldarâ€� published in War of the Jewels (HoME vol. XI) was written 1959-60. In it, the Nandor are considered Eldar, and both Nandor and Avari (proper Avari, about half Tatyar/second clan/*ñgolodō (with a little “nâ€�, signifying the original clan before it split over the Great Journey) and half Nelyar/third clan/*lindā) had migrated into Beleriand; in fact, the first Elves Fëanor and his followers encountered were Tatyar Avari, who recognized their ancient clan kinship with the returning rebellious Caliquendi.

For the folk of Dol Amroth, Mithrellas was not a legend, but the wife of Imrazôr and mother of Galador. The heritage was immediately obvious to Legolas almost a thousand years later even after 22 generations. We cannot imagine that this was the only intermarriage of Men and Elves in Middle-earth; however, only three intermarriages took place between their ruling families. These three are Beren-Lúthien, Tuor-Idril, and Aragorn-Arwen.

Finrod speaking to Andreth is a member of the royal house of the Second Clan (Noldor with a capital “Nâ€�) to a member of the ruling family of the First House of the Edain. I remain in agreement with Varnafindë that his discussion with her indicates that such unions had taken place before, that they “ended badly,â€� if you will: the lovers were forever separated, as were Dior EluchÃ*l and Nimloth. This is the crucial matter that Finrod and Andreth are debating: Andreth is complaining that she will bear that ultimate separation if Finrod’s brother Aegnor will return her love, to which Finrod – who is genuinely fond of Andreth and knows for certain that Aegnor truly loves her and will never love another, not even another Elf – explains that there cannot be a union of this sort between – and here I am interpolating – his kinsfolk, the High Elves and Grey Elves, and Men except for some great matter of Doom.

Does the essay “Quendi and Eldar� group the Nandor along with the Sindar in Middle-earth? Yeah, it does, and it’s later than LotR, and it explicitly says the Eldar include the Nandor. Is that what Tolkien was thinking when he wrote LotR and said that Imrahil’s ancestor was an elf, or when with some pains he explicitly lays out this union between Imrazôr and Mithrellas in “The House of Dol Amroth� in 1954, which is included in the chapter “Heirs of Elendil� in Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME vol. XII), or when he wrote “Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth� around 1959 (Morgoth’s Ring) – apparently contemporaneously with “Quendi and Eldar�? I don’t think it is.

I was going to argue that the Nandor were not consistently lumped with the Eldar, and for that point I found facsimiles several hand-drawn charts in the chapter “Lhammas� in Lost Road (HoME vol. V); but to my surprise, the Nandor – here called Ilkorindi (“not of Kôr [Tirion]�) – are a subset of the Eldar. Presumably the Ilkorindi were both the Sindar and what we are calling the Nandor as well.

It doesn’t seem to me that precludes Mithrellas’ being one of the Nandor. I don’t get the sense when I read his stories that Tolkien was either carefully or consistently employing the distinction that the Nandor were Eldar. He was careful to always distinguish the Sindar as Eldar, even though they had never seen the Two Trees (except for Elu Thingol). But it seems to me – and I could very easily be wrong – that when Tolkien is writing narrative, the Nandor and Avari are getting lumped together as non-Eldar. The distinction of the Nandor as Eldar in the narratives seems at best very sloppy compared his consistently rigorous distinction of the Sindar as Eldar.

Tolkien talks about the “Light Elves�, the Vanyar; the “High Elves�, the Noldor; and the “Grey Elves�, the Sindar. These are the Eldar. Are Nandor “Grey Elves�? No, they’re “Green Elves�. Well, yeah, technically they are; but Tolkien doesn’t seem to treat them that way, and in the narratives, they don’t appear to be Eldar. Of course, the Green Elves of Ossiriand told Finrod the Atani (Men) were their “unfriends�, so they were probably loathe to intermarry with them, while perhaps the Avari were not so strongly disinclined. Then again, after living with Lúthien and Beren during their brief sojourn in Middle-earth after returning from Mandos, maybe the Green Elves changed their minds about Men. Who knows?

Going back to Belwen_of_nargothrond’s original question, did Beren’s handling the Silmaril violate some rule that mortals could not handle a Silmaril? Obviously not, because he handled it. When Lúthien returned from Mandos with Beren, although she was still an Elf and the daughter of a Maia, she was also mortal, and she handled it and wore it, though Tolkien says that this may have hastened her demise. I have already presented an argument (that I hope is fairly convincing) that Dior is mortal because both his parents are mortal: he handled and wore the Silmaril as well, apparently without any bad effects: of itself, it didn’t shorten his life, though the Sons of Fëanor did out of covetousness of it. In the other hand, Maedhros and Maglor could not handle it, though they were not mortal.

In light of the issue of whether the Nandor are consistently treated as Eldar in the narratives (as opposed to the definition essays), I suggest that the “rule� that mortals could not handle the Silmaril is a loose end: it sounds great when you read it in the sense that it has a catchy literary ring to it, but it isn’t consistently applied: in fact, it seems to me to be consistently ignored.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

LoTR can hardly be a considered source regarding the Nandor, since they are not mentioned therein. Nor will you get very far arguing that the SIL is not the best source for the material which it covers, and LoTR does not (particularly inside The Silmarillion subforum).

My argument is that Tolkien-published text is the best source, and even if the term Nandor is not mentioned in The Lord of the Rings, the term Eldar is. I accept much about the Nandor according to The Silmarillion, but with respect to the particular detail of whether or not they are considered Eldar, I can choose to put first and foremost what The Lord of the Rings has to say about the term.

I also choose to imagine Celebrimbor as a Feanorian rather than a Telerin Elf, for instance, no matter that Tolkien wrote the latter idea later than he published the Feanorian detail.

But, we cannot be confident that Mithrellas was of Nandorin descent, Since Silvan also included the Avari who blended into their culture, and by the time of Amroth many Avari had moved into Lorien and Mirkwood, particularly during the War of Elves and Sauron in the third age.

In referring to Mithrellas as a Silvan, non-eldarin East-elf, to my mind (employing The Lord of the Rings) this can include Nandorin or Avarin descent. But the Avarin question is interesting in any event: does the 'late etymological discussion' (Unfinished Tales, The History of Galadriel And Celeborn, Appendix A) stating that the Silvan Elves are Telerin mean all of them are Telerin? Or did Tolkien simply not choose to mention the Avari here (outside of stating that these Telerin Tawarwaith were 'hardly to be distinguished from Avari' it seems)?

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The essay “Quendi and Eldar” published in War of the Jewels (HoME vol. XI) was written 1959-60. In it, the Nandor are considered Eldar, ...'

Incidentally Quendi And Eldar is arguably one of the unpublished sources Christopher Tolkien used to define Eldar in the Silmarillion.

For the folk of Dol Amroth, Mithrellas was not a legend, but the wife of Imrazôr and mother of Galador. The heritage was immediately obvious to Legolas almost a thousand years later even after 22 generations.

Still, Tolkien put the matter into a legendary context within The Lord of the Rings, and even The Line of Dol Amroth includes: 'according to the same traditions...', or 'in this tale it is said...', and most notably from the section The House of Dol Amroth (The Heirs of Elendil) it is noted: '(according to the legends and traditions of Dol Amroth)'

It's perhaps not easy to imagine Legolas being wrong about this, and that the traditions of Dol Amroth included a tale of fancy, but on the other hand, the marriage seems purposely characterized as a legend (interesting to note that Mithrellas 'slipped away by night and he saw her no more' after bearing the children of Imrazor. After a time even Imrazor himself could not produce his Elven wife as 'proof' of the story).

Perhaps the idea (ultimately) is: beyond the famed unions this one 'other union' should not be wholly certain.

For myself, I think that intermarriage between Elves and Men was meant to be seen as a rare event. In draft letter 153 Tolkien is speaking quite generally with respect to Elves and Men: 'Elves and men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring -- even as a rare event: there are 2 cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Earendil.' (1954)

Footnote to this section of the letter: 'One would expect 'three cases', cf The Lord of the Rings III 314: 'There were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain...' (note that this footnote refers to the wording of the second edition incidentally -- the first edition did not read Eldar and Edain, but High Elves and Men IIRC).

Finrod speaking to Andreth is a member of the royal house of the Second Clan (Noldor with a capital “N”) to a member of the ruling family of the First House of the Edain. I remain in agreement with Varnafindë that his discussion with her indicates that such unions had taken place before, that they “ended badly,” if you will: the lovers were forever separated, as were Dior EluchÃ*l and Nimloth. This is the crucial matter that Finrod and Andreth are debating: Andreth is complaining that she will bear that ultimate separation if Finrod’s brother Aegnor will return her love, to which Finrod – who is genuinely fond of Andreth and knows for certain that Aegnor truly loves her and will never love another, not even another Elf – explains that there cannot be a union of this sort between – and here I am interpolating – his kinsfolk, the High Elves and Grey Elves, and Men except for some great matter of Doom.

I don't think Finrod's words are necessarily based on former unions. He can be speaking generally, based on what he believes concerning the nature of Elves and Men; and it follows naturally enough (in my opinion), that the conditions he speaks of must come to pass: that is, put generally, Aegnor will not age and die and leave the World -- Andreth will, no matter the reason why.

As to Finrod's statement (high purpose of Doom and so on), I note Tolkien's commentary, including his use of more general 'Elves and Men' here: 'Finrod thus was slain before the two marriages of Elves and Men had taken place, though without his aid the marriage of Beren and Luthien would not have come to pass. The marriage of Beren certainly fulfilled his prediction that such marriages would only be for some high purpose of Doom, and that the least cruel fate would be that death should soon end them.'


Back to Eldar: in The Lhammas the Danas, at least at one point, were not 'certainly' considered Eldar, even though they began the Great March. Christopher Tolkien notes:

'In any case, the Danas are sufficiently characterized as Elves of the Great March who abandoned it early on but who still felt the desire for the West, and the suggestion in B is clearly that it was this that brought a part of the people over the mountains. Their position is anomalous, and might equally well be classified either as Eldarin or as not Eldarin.' CJRT, commentary section 7 The Lhammas, The Lost Road And Other Writings

We could attempt to maybe blend the conceptions in an internal way; for example: the term Eldar narrowed in application ('Star-folk' narrowed in application to exclude the other Star-folk who refused the March), and so it generally refers to The Marchers/People of the Stars (see Elda and Eldo in Quendi And Eldar), as in any who began the March. But possibly this narrowed again due to certain Elves giving up the March 'too early' -- arguably considered as not true Eldor or Marchers -- and thus Eldar/Eldor narrows again to refer to any who reached the Undying Lands or Beleriand, this becoming the true meaning of being a Marcher.

The etymological discussion concerning the Telerin Tawarwaith seems to contain the expression 'in origin Eldar'. Perhaps readers could imagine something similar to the Danas of The Lhammas: the Nandor could be considered Eldar in one sense, but not Eldar according to its later application. That said, when one brings up the three unions and the Mithrellas legend, this take on Eldar might seem like wriggling.

If so... again, why not go with Tolkien-published text here

[Galin]

Alcuin, since you appear to be back at the moment, how do the children of Elrond fit in with your previous commentary?

Tolkien also refers to them as half-elven IIRC, anyway.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Galin

Alcuin, since you appear to be back at the moment, how do the children of Elrond fit in with your previous commentary?

Tolkien also refers to them as half-elven IIRC, anyway.

The children of Elrond fit in my ruminations (and calculations) as they did before. If Dior was mortal, Elros and Elrond were half-mortal, and I suppose that made them “Halfelven�. Dior and Eärendil were Halfelven, but Elwing is only “Halfelven� if her father, Dior, is mortal and she is “Halfelven� in the sense of being half-mortal. Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen were technically one-quarter mortal, but as long as Elrond remained in Middle-earth, they were counted as Elves. Arwen clearly renounced that position and died as a mortal, apparently alone and perhaps unhappily. We know from the “Epilogue� in Sauron Defeated (abridged as The End of the Third Age) that after the departure of Galadriel, Celeborn lived for a while with his grandsons, Elladan and Elrohir, in Rivendell; but it would seem that by the time Findegil copied the Red Book Westmarch as the Thain’s Book (purportedly the copy that Tolkien “translated� from Westron into English as Lord of the Rings (and Silmarillion)) in Fourth Age 172, Celeborn had departed for Tol Eressëa. Whether Elladan and Elrohir left with him, left at another time, or chose to be mortal is a matter of debate: Tolkien does not reveal their fate.

Again, vbCode [IMG] is disabled in this part of Entmoot, at least for me; it works fine in other parts. I have the lineage of Elrond and Arwen worked out as fractions of Elves and Men at http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/ArwenLineage.jpg.

I don’t recall that Tolkien ever specifically called Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen “Halfelves�. By the union of Aragorn and Arwen, the long-sundered lines of the Peredhil were reunited, but the Peredhil in this case were properly Elros and Elrond, and the union of Aragorn and Arwen brought together the two distinct family lines descended from Eärendil and Elwing. Elrond was Halfelven, accounted by his choice as an Elf; his children were given the same grace to choose as was their father, but not Elros’ children: a bone of contention among many of Elros’ descendents. Furthermore, “The Drowning of Anadûnê� (Sauron Defeated) says that,

And Elrond chose to remain with the Firstborn, and to him the life of the Firstborn was given, and yet a grace was added, that choice was never annulled, and while the world lasted he might return, if he would, to mortal men, and die.

I think that it is his choice to “return … to mortal men, and die� that Elrond’s children inherited. I am struck by the phrase, “return … to mortal men,� as if his choice to be counted among the Elves removed him from the fate that first awaited him – I think that is a proper interpretation. In any case, Arwen specifically renounced her Elven lifespan and, as had Lúthien before her, chose to be mortal so that she might remain with Aragorn.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

(...) I don’t recall that Tolkien ever specifically called Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen “Halfelves”. By the union of Aragorn and Arwen, the long-sundered lines of the Peredhil were reunited, but the Peredhil in this case were properly Elros and Elrond, and the union of Aragorn and Arwen brought together the two distinct family lines descended from Eärendil and Elwing. Elrond was Halfelven, accounted by his choice as an Elf; his children were given the same grace to choose as was their father, but not Elros’ children: a bone of contention among many of Elros’ descendents.

In letter 211 (1958) Tolkien notes that the names of Elrond's sons: '... refer to the fact that they were 'half-elven' (III 314): they had mortal as well as Elvish ancestors on both sides;... ' noting JRRT's reference here to page 314 in The Lord of the Rings (first edition), Appendix A, on which page appears the reference to the Peredhil.

In letter 345 (1972) Tolkien wrote: 'Arwen was not an Elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights.'

Furthermore, “The Drowning of Anadûnê” (Sauron Defeated) says that, (...)

I think that it is his choice to “return … to mortal men, and die” that Elrond’s children inherited. I am struck by the phrase, “return … to mortal men,” as if his choice to be counted among the Elves removed him from the fate that first awaited him – I think that is a proper interpretation.

That quote is from The Fall of Numenor III, which (quote) CJRT contrasts with the later description in Appendix A: 'At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which kindred they would belong.'

Italic lettering as printed in Sauron Defeated.

[Alcuin]

If Tolkien wrote it, then it must be so. Were I given an opportunity to sit and speak with him, or to correspond with him – both of which I hope to do, but I’d like to put them off for several decades at least – I would first point out the fact that, within the legendarium, Dior had died and passed through the Halls of Mandos – and by Tolkien’s own telling, passed through and left Arda as a mortal Man normally would: hence the assumption on the part of Irmo Mandos that the Peredhil were mortal. I would also object, as did the Númenórean Kings, that Elrond’s children obtained the right to choose to which race they would be accounted, while Elros’ children obtained no such grace: “once mortal, ever mortal�; but this was the same rule Mandos propounded, that Manwë had set aside for Eärendil, Elwing, and Elrond. (And Tuor, but he is never mentioned in this argumentative context.)

I might snidely remark that Letter 345 was written in the last ten months of Tolkien’s life, and perhaps his views then did not reflect those he held for most of his writing, as is the case with whether Celeborn was Sindar of Beleriand or Teleri of Eldamar; but I think that would achieve no good end, because I think it is itself not an accurate assessment: it would appear that this does indeed accurately reflect Tolkien’s position on the matter. I might even resort to being tacky and note that Letter 345 is a discussion of naming cows and heifers, but that is simply ad hominem and counter-productive.

So in the end, I will have to agree that “Arwen was not an Elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights.� She was, by blood, more than three-quarters Elven (in fact, more than half Lindar, either Sindar or Teleri); and even if her great-grandfather Dior had been fully mortal, as I argue he was, she would have inherited only a quarter of mortal-ness, whatever that might be.

But if Arwen is Peredhil, would you argue that also for Aragorn? How then would you resolve the statement in Appendix A,

By the [union of Arwen and Aragorn] the long-sundered branches of the Half-elven were reunited and their line was restored.

Surely the “long-sundered branches of the Half-elven� were the descendants of Elros and Elrond, and Aragorn was not Half-elven, too, was he?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

(...) I would also object, as did the Númenórean Kings, that Elrond’s children obtained the right to choose to which race they would be accounted, while Elros’ children obtained no such grace: “once mortal, ever mortal”; but this was the same rule Mandos propounded, that Manwë had set aside for Eärendil, Elwing, and Elrond. (And Tuor, but he is never mentioned in this argumentative context.)

Adopting the description at the end of the 1930s Silmarillion (that part which was not taken up into the 1977 Silmarillion), I interpret it this way so far, with emphasis on my interpretation...

Any person of mixed blood, having mortal blood in any measure, is mortal with respect to fate -- though being still 'mixed' with respect to heritage. As I see it, this was the will of God as revealed in the 1930s Silmarillion.

If so, with respect to the children of Elros Halfelven, by reason of Elros' choice, the 'natural order' was restored, so to speak. However the children of Elrond -- or any mortal-blooded child of 'one who chooses an Elvish fate' -- cannot be automatically mortal-fated, because then they would be automatically sundered from at least one parent, even possibly beyond death.

Nor can the children of an Elvish-fated parent, having some measure of mortal heritage, automatically be denied death -- escape from the Circles of the World, and Time.

So, in a sense it might be said to be inherent in the choice, before it is even made, that the 'fair rule' concerning the children of 'one who chooses an Elvish fate', includes that they too must be free to decide -- again, by God's 'edict' Elrond's children will otherwise be automatically mortal-fated, having mortal blood, and automatically sundered from Elrond.

It would hardly make the choice of 'immortality' easy if one's children must die as mortals. Still, as it turned out, Elrond suffered this great sundering from Arwen -- and in my opinion, I tend to lean toward his sons choosing mortality as well.


Again, this is nowhere stated by Tolkien, but something I've arrived at myself. Anyone can feel free to rend it! if anyone really feels it's problematic.

[Alcuin]

That’s pretty good! I think I rather like that: its fits all the loose ends into a nice, neat bundle. Is that a Tolkien rule of Arda thermodynamics: mortality is the lower energy level?

Somehow, it rather fits, too: Elrond is separated from Arwen by his previous choice, which differs from hers, and Arwen suffers the same ambivalence about death as the Númenóreans whom she had scorned as “wicked fools”.

[Galin]

Thanks Alcuin! I've been trying it out on the web here and there -- not much negative reaction so far, but not much reaction of any kind so far, actually! Of course many have posted (before me) the idea that Elrond's children cannot be denied the escape of mortal death... but I don't remember seeing the 'sundering aspect' worked in before...

... and all based on something in the 1930s Silmarillion! There might be an unpublished letter out there that rends it all (if no one else does)... if so, and it comes to light one day, I'll add in advance: ah well! never mind.

[Alcuin]

Schematic of Arwen’s lineage in terms of race and house. I can only insert graphics into this part of Entmoot while in Edit mode.

http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/ArwenLineage.jpg

Nope. Works in threads on The Hobbit, but not in these. Here's the code:

[IMG]http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/ArwenLineage.jpg[/IMG]

No graphics permitted in threads on Silmarillion or Lord of the Rings?

[The Mormegil]

just like Earendil was suffered on the shores of Valinor. when no mortal man would ever find the shores. it was a great exception. it is the great will of iluvatar.