Single sex schools

[GrayMouser]

As in separate schools for boys and girls.

I teach a senior high school English composition class in Taiwan, and they go to all-boys and all-girls schools. Their schools are mixed/co-educational through elementary and junior high, then the academic/university prep. students go to single-sex schools for the last three years- grade 10, 11 and 12- while the commercial/technical/vocational atudents go to co-ed schools.

A recent essay topic was "Single-sex schools: for and against". We had a discussion on the pros and cons, and when the essays came in they were overwhelmingly in favour- the girls especially supported the idea.

I went to a typical Canadian high school, much like American ones, so I was a bit surprised (then again, these are the kind of 17-year-old kids who are sitting in a cram school at 9 o'clock on Saturday night).

Anybody go to a separate school? Thoughts?

[Comic Book Guy]

I'm guessing there are no segregated public schools in America and Canada? Unconstitutional?

I never went to separated school, though they do make up a significant minority of schools now in Ireland. Probably to do with the Catholic Church's historical influence.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I don't believe there are single sex public schools in the US ("segregated" here usually means racial segregation), but there are, naturally, a number of private ones. You do find single sex dorms at public universities, which though not the same thing, I would imagine probably has a similar social effect.

[The Gaffer]

Same story here, though we have religiously segregated state schools, which I would make illegal if I could, but that's another story.

I know people who went to single sex high schools and have heard arguments in favour and against.

One thing I've heard is the claim that they do better in this environment because they're not wasting their time trying to impress the opposite sex.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I can't say for sure, but since the cultural tendency is for males to objectify females, being free from the pressure and complexity of issues that brings up seems like it could be very good, especially for girls.

[The Gaffer]

To what extent does academic achievement matter in measuring which is the better way?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

I can't say for sure, but since the cultural tendency is for males to objectify females, being free from the pressure and complexity of issues that brings up seems like it could be very good, especially for girls.

Indeed data has shown that it does benefit females more than males because, at least in our culture, females tend to take a back seat to males in class room settings. The girls let the boys talk first and if they are specifically called on they tend to be less forthcoming with boys around then they would with only females observing them. I fear this has something to do with what girls think guys find attractive during the teen years... And its not intelligence unfortunately... Plus the presence of the opposite sex may cause the production of mating hormones that hamper the brains ability to retain and organize information.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Indeed data has shown that it does benefit females more than males because, at least in our culture, females tend to take a back seat to males in class room settings. The girls let the boys talk first and if they are specifically called on they tend to be less forthcoming with boys around then they would with only females observing them. I fear this has something to do with what girls think guys find attractive during the teen years... And its not intelligence unfortunately... Plus the presence of the opposite sex may cause the production of mating hormones that hamper the brains ability to retain and organize information.

Honestly, I think it's more what guys DO find attractive during the teen years, at least the great majority of them, then just what girls think they do. But you make good points. As much as we may dislike it, the fact is that the society we live in really remains, to a certain extent, a patriarchal one, in which women are expected to achieve less than men (hence the glass ceiling). Although separating has problems of its own, it can at least do something about these problems.

[BeardofPants]

Funny, girls generally tend to do better than boys at high school in a mixed setting:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...on/3110594.stm

So that objectification stuff you're talking about? Only appears to hurt the boys. If in fact that is the causal factor. Which I doubt.

[Insidious Rex]

And yet there is so much data showing that single sex education benefits both sexes, especially females in math and science:

England, July 2002: The National Foundation for Educational Research was commissioned to study the effect of school size and school type (single-sex vs. coed) on academic performance. The Foundation studied 2,954 high schools throughout England, where single-sex public high schools are widely available. They released their report on July 8 2002. They found:

1. Even after controlling for students' academic ability and other background factors, both girls and boys did significantly better in single-sex schools than in coed schools. In this age group (senior high school), the benefits were larger and more consistent across the board for girls than for boys. Specifically, girls at all levels of academic ability did better in single-sex schools than in coed schools; whereas for boys, the beneficial effect of single-sex schools was significant only for boys at the lower end of the ability scale. For higher-achieving boys, there was no statistically significant effect of school type on performance, positive or negative. (Remember, though, that this study only examined students in grades 9 through 12; other evidence [see below] suggests that single-sex education is most effective for boys in kindergarten and elementary school.)

2. Girls at single-sex schools were more likely to take non-traditional courses -- courses which run against gender stereotypes -- such as advanced math and physics. The researchers concluded that girls' schools are "helping to counter rather than reinforce the distinctions between 'girls' subjects' such as English and foreign languages and 'boys' subjects' such as physics and computer science" (p. 43). No such effect was seen for boys: for example, boys at single-sex schools were no more likely (actually somewhat less likely) to take courses in cooking than were boys at coed schools.

3. Schools of medium size (about 180 students per grade) seemed to do best. At smaller schools, there was a lack of course offerings especially at the advanced levels. At much larger schools, student performance appeared to suffer.

The Foundation concluded: "It would be possible to infer from the findings that, in order to maximise performance, [public] schools should [have] about 180 pupils per cohort, or year, and be single-sex."

from LINK

Of course it could be we are talking about two different phenomenons here. I think the percentage of females that have been going to college and getting post college education has been increasing since the early 80's pretty steadily. I remember them talking about that when I was in school in the early 90's. Perhaps thats a consequence of the Womens Equality movement that made a lot of headway in the way we approach education during that time? A generation of girls grew up aware that such a thing was an option.

[GrayMouser]

The two most noted reasons given by the girls in my class was not having to worry about their appearance and being able to more freely express themselves, including acting up without worrying about their reputation.

The boys mostly said that the presence of girls would be a distraction.

One advantage for me is that by attending my classes, even on Saturday night, they get a chance to interact with the opposite sex- keeps them coming.

[Twista]

I went to a single sex boarding school in Edinburgh, it had a sister school for girls in the same manner down the road.

The two merged in the final year. Was a good system I think. Not as if we never saw the others 10 minutes away!

[GrayMouser]

In Taiwan they try to place them at opposite sides of town.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

The two most noted reasons given by the girls in my class was not having to worry about their appearance

Is that really what they said?

I have been told by some girls that they actually dress nicer if they're going out with a bunch of their girl friends than if they're going with a guy because they feel like the other girls are going to judge them.

No idea if that's just the girls I know or not, but I had also heard some saying (maybe untrue?) that girls dress to impress other girls, not guys. Maybe that's a load of crap. I dunno.

[The Gaffer]

Which schools Twista? My mum went to Mary Erskine's.

Tessar, yes I'm sure they do, but that's probably because their attractiveness has become so ingrained as a measure of worth that you don't even have to have men around to apply it. Men do the same (about other stuff usually).

I bet there is a significant correlation between what type of school you went to and what type of school you think works best.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Is that really what they said?

I have been told by some girls that they actually dress nicer if they're going out with a bunch of their girl friends than if they're going with a guy because they feel like the other girls are going to judge them.

No idea if that's just the girls I know or not, but I had also heard some saying (maybe untrue?) that girls dress to impress other girls, not guys. Maybe that's a load of crap. I dunno.

Well in the words of that great social anthropologist Van Morrison "all the girls walk by dressed up for each other. And the boys do the boogie-woogie on the corner of the street."

Im guessing most guys are oblivious to the fashion details their girlfriends pour over before they go out. But their female peers/rivals arent...

[BeardofPants]

Women generally dress nice to compete with other women, not necessarily to impress men, IMO.

[GrayMouser]

It may make a difference in that the students here all wear uniforms, and none of the girls wear make-up.