Character Analysis: Elendil, Isildur, Anarion

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Look like somebody made a fib. But maybe it was a fib altogether?

Or maybe this inconsistency is due to the author's own shortcomings?

[Valandil]

I don't think we have to view this as EITHER the author's shortcomings or a 'cover-up' by the Elves.

Remember first of all that these accounts - both from UT and from anything in 'The Silmarillion' - we put together from notes. Nothing had reached the point where JRRT would consider it 'final'... he was putting it all together, trying different versions of the story, trying to make it all work out, etc. So if we see some inconsistencies, I think it's only because we don't have a 'final, authorized, official' version... and maybe it's best that way because at the time of 'LOTR' this is very ancient history, so that mimics how things work in the real world... slightly different accounts of how something came to be... but the end result is generally more or less the same.

That said, because of its length and detail, I tend to give the nod to the story in UT... and view the other versions as somewhat simplified.

Now... as to the 'year' between this ambush (Third Age Year 2) and Ohtar bringing the shards of Narsil to Imladris (Third Age Year 3)... not necessarilly so. How much time was there between noon on December 31, 1992 and noon on January 1, 1993? Or between noon on January 1, 1994 and noon on December 31, 1995? In each case, if we look at the year alone, we would say, "one year"... but it's easy to see that there was only a single day between the first two... and almost two full years between the second two.

Now, from the UT account, Isildur and his men left Osgiliath in early Ivanneth (September), hoping to reach Imladris in 40 days. It was the 30th day of the journey when they were attacked... so early October. A foot-note tells us that they left on the 5th, so they were attacked on the 4th of Narbeleth (October) - and it also tells us that in the North, journeys were not usually begun between November 1 and the end of February, in times of peace.

Now... suppose Ohtar didn't know exactly how to get to Rivendell? OK - even if he was with Isildur all along, he maybe just went there once, when Isildur went to Rivendell, he stayed there in training, and then they left for the great war. He would have come from a different direction. He and one companion were alone in the wilderness, with scant provisions, hundreds of miles and a great mountain range separating them from where they needed to go (EDIT: and a wide river... a great obstacle in October when you want to carry a heavy sword across... maybe they waited in hiding a couple days then rafted it???). Crossing the mountains would be perilous for only two, and they had to have food to eat. They probably went quite slowly. I like the idea that they crossed at the Redhorn Pass, rather than the High Pass... but don't think it's likely that Ohtar had much knowledge of Lothlorien... remember also that Galadriel was not Queen of Lorien at this time... not for almost another 2000 years! The Elves of Lorien had fought with the Last Alliance, their king had been killed and Amroth, his son, was now their new king. Now, it's possible that either the Elves of Lorien, or the Dwarves of Moria, would meet and give aid to these allies... but they might as likely encourage them to stay through the winter... especially if they did not meet until nearly, or almost, November. That would be the only sensible thing to do. I suspect they actually reached Imladris in early to mid spring of Year 3... maybe 6 months after the attack.

Estelmo was knocked unconscious and, I'd think, likely wounded. He survived the battle, but was likely taken in by the woodsmen who scattered the remnants of the Orcs. He was alone, wounded, nowhere to go. He probably also wintered among them.

Upon hearing word of the battle, I imagine Elrond, Isildur's wife and young Valandil would have sent out a party to find whatever they could about what happened, guided by Ohtar. They could have found Estelmo then, learned what he had to tell of the story, found the items Isildur apparently shed at the edge of the River, and so forth. Then, Estelmo would have returned with them.

Sound logical? Satisfactory?

[Valandil]

Now... the big daddy, Elendil!

He was the heir of the Lords of Andunie. Andunie was in the northwest portion of Numenor (Andustar)... and was the place the Elves came and landed most when they sailed from Eressea. Andunie seems to have been second only to the royal house. Indeed, their lords descended from Silmarien, daughter and eldest child of one of Numenor's early kings, Tar-Elendil. During Numenor's latter days, the Lords of Andunie helped the Faithful, but secretly, to avoid notice. Once Sauron was taken hostage and worked his way into the counsel of King Ar-Pharazon, Amandil, father of Elendil, fell out of favor... still, he and his family were not harmed, but they removed to Romenna - port city in the east of the island.

Amandil and Elendil both were considered 'great captains' in Numenor's forces. When King Ar-Pharazon was preparing the Great Armament to sail against Valinor, Amandil tried to repeat what Earendil had done over 3,000 years before... he sailed into the West, breaking the Ban of the Valar... but only to plead for his people. He was not heard from again though, and was apparently unsuccessful.

Following his father's advice, Elendil discretely gathered all that he could of Numenor's remaining Faithful... placing them aboard 9 ships he had in Romenna. He tried to hide the fact that many people, especially young (military-eligible) men were aboard, to keep them from being sent to join the Great Armament. And he didn't meddle in Ar-Pharazon's plan, but waited... appearing to prepare to join his father in Middle-earth (for Amandil had sailed first east, then either north or south and back west).

Then of course, the ships were caught up in the Great Wave and taken to Middle-earth, where Elendil established Arnor in the North and Isildur and Anarion established Gondor in the South.

Elendil was TALL! In UT, we're told of the Numenorean measure, the 'ranga' - which is about = 38". An note says that "man-high" meant two of these... about 6'-4"... and says off-hand that Elendil was nearly 2 and a half rangar tall! A FULL 2 1/2 rangar would be 95"... that's 7'-11'!!! OK - so what was he... maybe 7'-8"??? WOW!

Another entry in UT says something interesting. In talking about Isildur's eldest son, Elendur, it compares him favorably to Elendil:

So perished Elendur, who should afterwards have been King, and as all foretold who knew him, in his strength and wisdom, and his majesty without pride, one of the greatest, the fairest of the seed of Elendil, most like to his grandsire.

By saying it about Elendur and making the comparison, Tolkien tells us more about Elendil: strength, wisdom, majesty without pride!

[Valandil]

Also meant to say: 'Elendil' means 'Elf-friend'

And... of the seven palantiri brought to Middle-earth by Elendil and his sons, one of them was not in accord with the others... it looked only to the West... toward where Numenor had been - and beyond to Eressea. Gil-galad befriended Elendil when he came ashore on Middle-earth... and built for him the towers of Emyn Beraid. This palantir was placed in the highest one, which was called Elostirion. Elendil was said to have spent much time atop this tower looking west into this palantir...

Among Amandil's last recorded words to Elendil is this: "...Then you will lose all that you have loved, foretasting death in life, seeking a land of exile elsewhere..."

His capital city, Annuminas, means 'tower of the west'.

Elendil seems to have been very sentimental about old Numenor... especially of what it had once been, while the Kings and people lived Faithfully... or of what it could have been, if they had returned in their hearts to obedience. He seems a tragic figure in some ways... and to have not spoken much. Of the little we have that he said, this is quoted many years later by Aragorn when he takes the crown of Gondor: "Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world."

[Olmer]

Very nice summary on Elendil. His height is impressive, too bad they did not have a basketball team over there.
I like that you included the Oath of the King of Faithful. In my POV this words depict Elendil’s intention to come to this land “for keeps”, his courageous resolution to accept this wild rough place on the earth as permanent home for his family and his descendants .

Your explanation of Ohtar’s account sounds logical at the first glance, but nevertheless it’s not satisfactory.

The story did not “put together” because, as JRRT told himself , the stories arose in my mind as “given” things, and as they came, separately, so too the links grew. So the basic of the stories , as Tolkien perceived it, was final and never changed. What was changed is the details, the” links”, given in later versions of the same stories and arranged by Christopher Tolkien in books such as UT , by which J.R.R.Tolkien tried to interpret the “given “stories and justify the actions of his heroes.
Therefore the inconsistencies in there was because he, pretending to be a historian recording what was already “there”, somewhere , was trying to explain the events of the history as they were rather revealed through him then by him, but , as any historian, he was giving just one version of events, which does not mean exclusion of others, very “different accounts of how something came to be..”,( as you just said ), as it usually happens in the real world.

Your point on the dates is very valid. I did not check with this first. Bummer!!
Still, even taking in consideration that Ohtar used the Redhorn Gates to pass, it doesn’t justify his tardiness, and I explain why.

As I said before, an esquire is more than an attendant, he is the master’s right hand, and had to attend him wherever he goes, besides ”Ohtar was dear to Isildur and of his own kin”(UT), which means that he was not a “trainee”, and has been quite long time around to became favored even by the king’s relatives. And since Isildur knew the land well, for he had journeyed there often before the War of the Alliance.. (UT) we can safely presume that Ohtar, accompanying him, knew quite well the way around, and the road which was leading along the Silverlode, past Lorien and up to the Redhorn Gates should be familiar to him.

So, the only obstruction on the east side of the mountains was the crossing of Anduin. How long you have to wait in dire errand to cross the river? Definitely, not 4 month! If Aragorn could swim across Anduin carrying Gollum, then for a man of a Numenorian bearing it should not be an obstacle either. Then 2 -3 days by the road to the Pass. Crossing the Redhorn should not be a big problem also, because in October it was relatively safe and clean road.
Then for 3-4 days he took an ancient road, that had once been broad and well planned,”.(FTOR) from the mountain pass to Hollin where the land and weather was milder even in the winter time and
it was still October. Even without knowledge of the area, you can follow the mountain range North to come eventually to the Brunien and therefore to the Great East Road in Imladris vicinity.

Now comes the longest and more difficult part of the journey , because south of Rivendell they (mountains) rose even higher, and bent westwards; and about the feet of the main range there was tumbled an ever wilder land of bleak hills, and deep valleys filled with turbulent waters. Path were few and winding, and led them often only to the edge of some sheer fall, or down into treacherous swamp.(FOTR) I can imagine it could really deter you for some time. If the Fellowship walked through it in 14 days in the middle of the winter, I would give a month -and -half to Ohtar to figure out the way to Rivendell .
Now, let's count: the ambush happened on October 4, 1-3 days to cross Anduin, 2-4 days from Anduin to Redhorn Gates, crossing the mountains by the road with a big stretch -3 days, then 3-4 days to walk across the Hollin land .He is reaching the most difficult terrain by the middle of October, so he supposed to reach Imladris somewhere in the end of November. Now, even if we accept the fact that he came there in January, where the heck he had been for another two month? Sitting , waiting out like some rat in the hole?
I doubt that the man, a soldier, of his stature and courage with the VERY important message to deliver would be encouraged by anyone to halt his mission and postpone (!) bringing to his superiors the news of such vital significance.

Your explanation about Estelmo survival through the winter sounds very logical. But , even if Estelmo was not “encouraged “ to tell about the last words of the king, in his recollection we catch the glimpse of the terrible truth.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Upon hearing word of the battle, I imagine Elrond, Isildur's wife and young Valandil would have sent out a party to find whatever they could about what happened, guided by Ohtar. They could have found Estelmo then, learned what he had to tell of the story, found the items Isildur apparently shed at the edge of the River, and so forth. Then, Estelmo would have returned with them.

I disagree with this. In Unfinished Tales it says that soon after the battle King Thranduril's elves came upon the orcs and none were left alive. Surely Elrond would not have sent out a party to travel this distance, knowing that some orcs could still be alive and that other elves lived within 2 days march. I'm sure hearing this news and where Ohtar was heading King Thranduril would have sent Estelmo with a company of his own armed elves and maybe even travel himself as the level of importancy that Elrond heard what Estelmo had to say. And Elrond didn't know whether Isildur was alive, dead or wounded he would not have wanted to set out only for Isildur to reach Imladris and find next to no one there. In my opinion Elrond was wise enough to know that the risk on setting out is to high.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I disagree with this. In Unfinished Tales it says that soon after the battle King Thranduril's elves came upon the orcs and none were left alive. Surely Elrond would not have sent out a party to travel this distance, knowing that some orcs could still be alive and that other elves lived within 2 days march. I'm sure hearing this news and where Ohtar was heading King Thranduril would have sent Estelmo with a company of his own armed elves and maybe even travel himself as the level of importancy that Elrond heard what Estelmo had to say. And Elrond didn't know whether Isildur was alive, dead or wounded he would not have wanted to set out only for Isildur to reach Imladris and find next to no one there. In my opinion Elrond was wise enough to know that the risk on setting out is to high.

That's OK, I still agree with myself. First of all, I didn't say Elrond had to go himself (though he may have)... and I believe Imladris had plenty of inhabitants... they could send out a search party and hardly leave the place deserted. I'm not saying this is DEFINITELY how they got Estelmo's story... but it seems one plausible explanation. I definitely DO think Elrond, Isildur's wife/widow and son would ALL want to find out all they could about what had happened.

If Thranduil had sent an armed escort to Imladris with Estelmo, they would have arrived there before the year was out - and therefore before Ohtar - which doesn't line up with the rest of the information we have.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Valandil

If Thranduil had sent an armed escort to Imladris with Estelmo, they would have arrived there before the year was out - and therefore before Ohtar - which doesn't line up with the rest of the information we have.

That would depend on when they left. For all we know Estelmo could have been badly wounded and if that was so then they wouldn't have left straight after they found him.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Elanor the Fair

I guess I always thought about Isildur not destroying the ring in a different light. To Isildur the ring represented the death of his most beloved parent and many friends. It was a long and bitter struggle that he was involved in. He kept the ring as an heirloom for his people - and keeping it was sort of cathartic. It's a bit like people visiting the site where loved ones died.

I agree, Isildur kept the ring IMO also as a sort of 'weregild'. The war with Sauron had cost is Isildur his father, his brother and his fair city of Minas Ithil, it is understandable that he kept Sauron's ring - something the fallen maia treasured beyond all else - as a sort of payback.

Besides, I don't think the true betraying nature of the Ruling Ring was that well known at the time. Isildur may have thought it was not a dangerous item to carry as its previous owner was cast into ruin. I think no one could really have forseen the resiliance and the treacherous nature of the Ring at that time.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

He says that he will take it as a memory of his father and his brother but I agree that it's true nature wasn't then known and Sauron's strength while wearing it was just put down to him being a Maia.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Elendil seems to have been very sentimental about old Numenor... especially of what it had once been, while the Kings and people lived Faithfully... or of what it could have been, if they had returned in their hearts to obedience. He seems a tragic figure in some ways... and to have not spoken much. Of the little we have that he said, this is quoted many years later by Aragorn when he takes the crown of Gondor: "Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world."

Yes, yes and this is why i love him so much!

I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread.

[Valandil]

Yes - you keep turning up these good oldies.

What do you think of Olmer's theories? Had you read many of his posts before?

He basically doesn't idolize the Elves and their behavior and motivation as much as the typical Tolkien fan would - or as much as a hobbit chronicler would, for sure.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Valandil

What do you think of Olmer's theories?

With due respect to him, of course, his ideas (here and elsewhere) strike me as a bit revisionist. I'm honestly not crazy about them, but i do appreciate the kind of creativity and 'thinking outside the box' that such theorizing requires, even if i don't always agree.

[Valandil]

That's pretty much how I feel. I'm not a subscriber to that viewpoint - but it's very interesting to hear it, and he can put together a solid case from what we're given (although the other case can also be quite solid).

[Voronwen]

Back to the idea of Elendil as tragic, sentimental... this is exactly what i wanted to evoke with my "Song of Voronwen" poem. I could just see him standing there at the palantir, sorrowful as anything, needing a hug from a lady who shares and understands his deep love and sorrow for Numenor.

He has a quiet strength that is undeniable. His power is drawn from his noble heart, his connection with the past. He is an idealist and his is a love story, really. I see his fight against Sauron as being his ultimate avenging of Numenor, all of its peace and beauty, its history, and all that it stood for, all that he loved. In a way it's fitting that he gave his life to this fight, as tragic as that is.

I see Isildur as having a personality very different from his father's. Not so conservative/past-oriented. More fiery and driven. In the conversation between he and his son Elendur, we can see who is the hothead But Elendur has his grandfather's personality and takes the lead, in a way. He gives the situation that solid, level-headed kingly demeanor that his grandfather would have had.

Anarion seems different from his father, too. Perhaps he got his quiet strength, but in a different way. Perhaps he looked up to his older brother through the years as a role-model of sorts, but had a gentler personality. I guess we really don't know enough about him to say.

[Valandil]

Voronwen - yes, I think we have very similar concepts of Elendil and his near family.

One more thing about the Elves: I do see a lot of validity in making them somewhat more dangerous - more perilous - than so many JRRT fans seem to imagine them to be.

I don't think your average Middle Earth person could ever think of the Elves as 'buddies' - and just say, "hey - let's go out into the woods, meet some Elves and hang out with them - and they'll hang out with us!" And that seems like how a lot of people want to view them.

But the Elves are very different from Men - and I think would be quite 'standoffish' from most mortals, in the best of cases. In the worst of cases, they would put an arrow through you sooner than ask what you were doing in their land, as was near to happening when the Fellowship entered Lorien - or throw you in their dungeons if you strayed in the woods and didn't answer every question to their liking, as happened to Thorin & Company.

Perilous they were indeed. Not for us mortals to mix with - except in instances both rare and dire.