Glorfindel's Witch-King prophecy

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Any idea where he got this information?

Mandos?
Practical knowledge of the nature of WiKi?
Some other channel?
How did he know the WiKi would not be slain by a man?

[Earniel]

My guess has always been: Divine Inspiration.

[Gordis]

Very interesting question, DPR.

Mandos
I would rule Mandos (or other Valar) out. Of course, Mandos had made some spectacular prophecies, like the Prophecy of the North (the Doom of the Noldor), but I doubt that he would bother to prophesy about the Witch-King's fate. Not important enough for the Vala...

Also, Glorfindel last saw Mandos sometime before his return to ME. There are two versions of the time of Glorfindel's return:
1. Mid Second Age, sometime before or during the Eregion war of 1695-1701. At this time the future Witch-King was either not yet born, or was a young Man who certainly had no ring yet. Very unlikely that Mandos would "set his fate" so much beforehand...
2. about 1000 of the Third Age, along with Gandalf. At this time the WK was all but forgotten, hiding somewhere in the East, not yet a problem to the Dunedain of the West. What the Istari and Glorfindel were worried about was the possible return of Sauron. Unlikely that Mandos would think of the Nazgul lord at this time.

Practical knowledge of the nature of WiKi?
I don't see how normal logical reasoning would help to determine that he would be slain not by a hand of man and far in the future...It clearly requited something "supernatural" to glimpse that.

Some other channel?
Yes, I guess there were some other channels for the Elves and Dunedain to obtain prophetic knowledge. There was a lot of true prophecies in LOTR: Malbeth's, Aragorn's, Aragorn's grandmother's, Halbarad's etc. Surely a reborn Elf had access to such channels. He had personal dealings with the WK as a wraith and speculatively could know him as a living Man long before: thus no wonder he could have a glimpse of his fate.

Originally Posted by DPR

How did he know the WiKi would not be slain by a man?

There was a lot of debate on other threads about what exactly Glorfindel saw: a woman and a halfling or something more vague... I personally think he saw nothing, he heard things. The words of prophecy he uttered came to his head from unknown source and he but repeated them. That was the way "visions" worked in the Notions Club papers (HOME 9), written almost in the same period. There Loudham either heard words, or saw in his dreams written pages. If it were the same with Glorfindel, then he knew no more than he said about the WK's fate, it was useless to question him further: he would not be able to say whether he meant "Man" as race or "man" as male.

[Draken]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Practical knowledge of the nature of WiKi?

I think you're right: I checked:

Wikipedia.com

Subject: The Witch-King of Angmar

Background: The Witch-King was a human seduced by means of one of the Rings of Power to the Dark Side by Darth Vader.

History: The Witch-King led the forces of Angmar against the Kingdom of Arnor, eventually destroying that realm. However Angmar itself was over-run, obliging him to flee to Mordor, like a little girl.

Prophecy: Glofindel predicted that the Witch-King could not be slain by man.

Death: the Witch-King, mounted on a big mean bat-like thing, led the Nazgul into the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. There he was stabbed by a hobbit and then slain by Eowyn of Rohan. Who was both female and hot. In a tough sorta way.

Comment: ok hobbits aren't standard humans and women aren't Men. But let's face it we're being picky here. I mean Men is a generic term for makind surely?

Related items: Eowyn and Arwen. I mean the thought has crossed your mind yeah? Or is that just me?

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

I always assumed he guessed this because the WK had been in a lot of battles, when he was tearing through Angmar, and I don't doubt he was actually in the fight and not just sitting on the bench. I mean, his terror was a powerfull weapon he wasn't afraid to use, so why wouldn't he fight? I'm sure some lucky guy, man, got a shot in on him and ended up sick, like Merry and Eowyn, died, and nothing happened to the WK. I remember somewhere Aragorn saying all blades that touch him perish so someone had to have gotten in a shot. Rumor spead he couldn't be killed and it soon became a prophecy that no man could kill him. I just wonder if someone like Legolas or Gimli couldv'e killed him. They're not men. What if an arrow from one of the hobbits that fought in the Angmar war hit him? Could that have done the trick? I know they said the blade Merry used was the only one that couldv'e hurt him like that but, was that ever really tested?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Maybe Glofindal just said it to cool down the hot headed Earnur, and it was just luck that it sort of came true.

[Earniel]

Reading this discussion, I'm starting to wonder why no one ever questioned Glorfindel further on this revelation. If people start throwing such definitive statements about your enemies around, I would think one'd like to get to the bottom of things. But somehow most of them (apparently including the Witch-King himself) seem to take the statement as: "Ah well, no one can kill him then, bugger." and leave it at that.

A bit sloppy, I say.

[Valandil]

Earniel - I don't know if Glorfindel (or any Elf) would really reveal, especially to mortals, the nature of his knowledge.

As for HOW he knew it... I think he once heard it in a song - as sung by the Valar and Maiar in Aman.

[Earniel]

But Glorfindel was allied with those mortals during the war, one can expect an ally to share some details about knowledge concerning killing a formidable foe and enemy commander. I know I would want to know the details.

And I would suppose the two post-Numenorean kingdoms to know about how the history of the Elves is pretty much filled with Valar-inspired prophesies. The Eldar didn't exactly kept things like the Doom of the North, or Tuor's Gondolin prophesy a secret in the Third Age.

And I can't exactly imagine the Valar or Maiar singing about Sauron's minions in Aman. It sounds somewhat against character. I'd reckon they'd be far more happier to sing about their own pretty realm, the more kosher deeds of the Noldor, or the Trees instead of fifty-ways-to-kill-a-nazgul.

[Valandil]

Actually - maybe Men would have just assumed that Glorfindel got his knowledge from association with those in Aman.

As for further questioning him, I don't imagine that he was very accessible to potential questioners.

----

First Man: "Hmmm... now that I think about it, I wonder just what Glorfindel meant by that, or how he knows about it - or just how we should take it."
Second man: "Well... you could ask him the next time you see him."
First Man: "Now THAT's not likely to happen in the rest of my lifetime!"

----

As for the content of the songs at Aman - perhaps they only sang the 'good parts' - but I wonder if they didn't sing all the song, as they sang it to Eru before the world was made. And - Glorfindel may have heard something there in Aman, had no idea what it was in reference to - but at that moment in 1975 of the Third Age, had a flash of insight into it that he shared with Earnur and those others around him.

Or - the Valar & Maiar might have only sung the good parts, but might have recounted enough of the rest to their Elven friends that Glorfindel heard it similarly. They may have especially 'briefed' Glorfindel on pertinent items before they shipped him back to Middle Earth.

[Valandil]

PS: As he framed the statement, Glorfindel may have even had a twofold purpose:

1. Giving a prophecy about the Witch-King's end.
2. Trying to keep Earnur from chasing after him... or even responding to any subsequent challenges from the Witch-King (the first of which he was successful at - but not the second).

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Speaking of guys not explaining themselves, is there any good reason Aragorn wouldn't tell Theoden, Eomer, and Eowyn what he was planning to do when embarking on the Paths of the Dead? Why let them think he was riding to his likely death? Sure, it makes good drama for Tolkien to write it that way but it doesn't make a lot of sense for Aragorn.