Entmoot
 


Go Back   Entmoot > J.R.R. Tolkien > Lord of the Rings Books
FAQ Members List Calendar

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-16-2008, 04:52 PM   #161
Gordis
Lady of the Ulairi
 
Gordis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcuin View Post
But at least some of the Nazgûl must have been in the personal guard, I think.
Sauron’s personal guard must be first peeled away in order to get to him: that’s the purpose of having a personal guard.
Any Nazgûl in Sauron’s personal guard would have been cut down or (once Sauron was vanquished) forced to try to escape literally unseen.
That makes the nazgul's 100% survival even harder to understand. Were the Nazgul literally impossible to kill without proper enspelled weapons? Or did they flee, regardless of Sauron's mind-control. (The Dark Lord likely had forgotten about them at the moment).
Otherwise they would have been cut down with the rest of Sauron's guard. After all, the personal guard of Elendil, Gil-Galad etc. the nazgul were fighting with were also quite tough guys, no doubt. And there may have been other Elf lords and Numenorean lords who remained to fight the nazgul: Celeborn, Thranduil, Amroth, Meneldur...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DPR
When Sauron was thrown down, how do you suppose the Nazgul felt, lost or free?
I think that even before Sauron had been cut down, there had to be a moment when he forgot about the nazgul, minding only his own hide. The nazgul may have felt disoriented, as the orcs felt at the Black Gate in TA 3019, when Sauron's will left them, wholly concentrating on Frodo at Sammath Naur. There might have been a moment when the nazgul asked themselves: "What in Ungoliant are we doing here fighting these Elves?"
Perhaps it was at that moment that the nazgul "passed into shadows" - i.e. used their Rings to escape. Later they had enough time to assess the new situation and start to enjoy freedom.
I agree with NEL's answer, with a slight correction:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcuin
The text indicates that Boromir I, Steward of Minas Tirith and ancestor of Boromir in LotR, was not afraid of them either, and Faramir collapsed only because of Black Breath in connection with physical and emotional exhaustion in combination with an arrow wound.)
I think you don't make enough distinction between not being afraid and having enough guts to suppress one's fear and not act upon it. I think with the guys you have mentioned it was always the latter. The lucky Elves might have indeed felt no fear, but humans always did - it was the very essence of nazgul, former Men, that caused this horror in humans.

But suppressing one's horror again and again is unhealthy, maybe even more draining than surrendering to it. It is exhausting, leads to neurosis and what in ME is called "effects of the Black Breath".

Last edited by Gordis : 12-16-2008 at 04:54 PM.
Gordis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2008, 04:07 AM   #162
Alcuin
Salt Miner
 
Alcuin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordis View Post
Were the Nazgul literally impossible to kill without proper enspelled weapons?
That would get my vote. (Maybe excepting fire; but perhaps that was just extremely painful.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordis View Post
The nazgul may have felt disoriented, as the orcs felt at the Black Gate in TA 3019, when Sauron's will left them, wholly concentrating on Frodo at Sammath Naur. There might have been a moment when the nazgul asked themselves: "What in Ungoliant are we doing here fighting these Elves?"
I can go with that, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordis View Post
Perhaps it was at that moment that the nazgul "passed into shadows" - i.e. used their Rings to escape. Later they had enough time to assess the new situation and start to enjoy freedom.
Yes, I think that whichever Ringwraiths were with Sauron when he left Barad-dur did use their rings to escape. I suspect that Sauron could move very quickly at need, even trapped in a man-like body, so that whole event might actually have been over rather quickly, particularly once Gil-galad and Elendil checked Sauron's advance up the mountainside.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordis View Post
I think you don't make enough distinction between not being afraid and having enough guts to suppress one's fear and not act upon it. ... suppressing one's horror again and again is unhealthy, maybe even more draining than surrendering to it. It is exhausting, leads to neurosis and what in ME is called "effects of the Black Breath".
I want to quibble with this. I think that controlling fear is not suppressing it: fear can drive people to accomplish things, too. I have never been in combat, and I hope I never will be, but I understand from my friends who have experienced it that fear can propel a man to do things he never thought he could do, and that onlookers can believe that he was courageous, not fearful, if the man can keep his fear under control. That is not to say that there are not men who do not know (or admit to knowing) fear, but that is how I understand something I have not experience firsthand.
Alcuin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2008, 10:16 AM   #163
The Dread Pirate Roberts
Elf Lord
 
The Dread Pirate Roberts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 987
Hmm. If one masters his fear and perhaps even uses it to his advantage, is he still to be considered afraid?

Quote:
I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.
__________________
~The DPR
"Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning."
The Dread Pirate Roberts is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Visitors Come to Court Valandil Writer's Workshop 56 01-27-2010 11:29 AM
40 years ago today - The Rev'd Martin Luthor King jr. MrBishop General Messages 10 04-05-2008 08:20 PM
LOTR Discussion: Appendix A, parts 2 and 3 Forkbeard LOTR Discussion Project 12 12-28-2007 07:10 AM
gandalf or the witch king orithil Middle Earth 17 08-10-2006 11:26 AM
(EE) Witch King vs. Gandalf The Wizard from Milan Lord of the Rings Movies 34 05-20-2005 07:46 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) 1997-2019, The Tolkien Trail