Maeglin - Tragic hero?

[Morris]

Originally Posted by Curufin

Which three? If you're talking about Doriath, Nargothrond and Gondolin, the last two would never have existed in the first place without Fëanor, the fall of Nargothrond was completely due to Túrin's arrogance, and Maeglin was responsible for the fall of Gondolin. The fall of Doriath was at least as much due to Thingol's greed and xenophobia as it was anything to do with Fëanor or his sons.

Aqualonde, Doriath, and the Havens of Sirion are the three I'm thinking of. I suppose technically Aqualonde didn't fall and it's a bit debatable wether the Havens should be considered a city, but my point is really that Feanor's arrogance and inflexibility (and that of his sons) are the root cause of most of the suffering described in the Silmarillion.

I'm threadjacking my own thread a bit here, but really the point I'm trying to make is that Tolkien was very fond of using characters who, even with the best of initial intentions, have fatal character flaws that lead to destruction and ruin. I'd argue that Turin, Maeglin, and Feanor himself all fall into this category as do Feanor's sons.

[Curufin]

I would also strongly argue against the fact that the fall of Doriath had anything to do with Fëanor or his sons. I think Thingol did that quite well on his own.

but my point is really that Feanor's arrogance and inflexibility (and that of his sons) are the root cause of most of the suffering described in the Silmarillion.

Fëanor caused the trouble with Húrin? Fëanor cursed Túrin? Fëanor caused the greed of the men of Númenor? Fëanor is responsible for Thingol's greed and ignorance? Fëanor killed Finwë? Fëanor destroyed the Two Trees?

I think you're pushing it a little too far, there. Morgoth, not Fëanor, is to blame for the suffering caused in The Silmarillion - all of it.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

He said 'most' of the suffering, not 'all.' Of course you're correct, Curufin, that Morgoth is the root of all evil in the entire legendarium, but that doesn't absolve Fëanor or anyone else who commits evil deeds. "The devil made me do it" doesn't hold water.

I realize you like Fëanor's personality and charismatic speech-giving ability but what good did he ever actually do but make some really great jewelry? Almost all his other deeds were well-intentioned yet tragic, hot-headed and ill-planned, or conniving and cruel. I can't think of a single act of compassion or kindness he committed.

[Curufin]

Fëanor is an imperfect character, I don't deny that. But I think to accuse him of all evil that happened is a bit harsh. But the point of my Fëanor example was that there's no comparison between Maeglin's deeds and Fëanor's. Maeglin didn't even try to fight Morgoth's evil.

EDIT: Used my 1000th post defending Fëanor.

[Aikanáro]

Hope you all don't mind a rather rambling post, because I'd like to make a few comments (and test out the multi-quote function!)

Originally Posted by Eärniel

On the other hand Morgoth did have an significant influence on Fëanor. Fëanor ended up listening far more to Morgoth and even parroting some of his speeches than he realised. And Morgoth had had to be far more subtle about it under the watchful eyes of the Valar, than with Maeglin in his own fortress.

I realize this being the Silmarillion forum these quotes may well be inadmissible, but thought I'd post them anyway for anyone who might be interested. Of Fëanor:

He held no converse with [Morgoth] and took no counsel from him

And when Morgoth does try:

But his cunning overreached his aim; his words touched too deep, and awoke a fire more fierce than he designed; and Fëanor looked upon Melkor with eyes that burned through his fair semblance and pierced the cloaks of his mind, perceiving there his fierce lust for the Silmarils

Now while I do agree with you that on a subconscious level Fëanor might well have been a little influenced by some of Morgoth's ideas - but he was perceptive, saw more of Morgoth's evil than even the Valar did at the time, and in my opinion it can't really be compared to the situation with Maeglin.

That said, I do think Maeglin falls into the 'tragic hero' category, rather than 'villain'

Originally Posted by Morris

I'm threadjacking my own thread a bit here, but really the point I'm trying to make is that Tolkien was very fond of using characters who, even with the best of initial intentions, have fatal character flaws that lead to destruction and ruin. I'd argue that Turin, Maeglin, and Feanor himself all fall into this category as do Feanor's sons.

To varying degrees, yes. I think that's why I like them.

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

"The devil made me do it" doesn't hold water.

How about 'Fate made me do it?'

[Morris]

Originally Posted by Aikanáro

How about 'Fate made me do it?'

This was really the thrust of my argument. Tolkien LOVES to give us these really classically Greek-tragedy characters who are really doomed from the outset to follow a road that can only lead them to ruin, no matter how much or little they fight it.

Maeglin was pretty much screwed from the first moment he saw Idril and fell in love with her, and the implication in the story is that he is the instrument of the Doom of Mandos falling upon Turgon just as Ulmo warned it would.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

One quick correction, Morris. Maeglin didn't love Idril.

[Ingwe]

A lot of the themes George Lucas put into Star Wars seem to parallel some of those in the Silmarillion, this isn't the first time I noticed that though.

Anyway, Fëanor and Maeglin both started with good intentions. Maeglin let his passions hunt him and Fëanor let his overzealousness and short-sightedness hunt him. For when you deny yourself, you deny your own people. Good intentions seems to be the theme for all that is catastrophic. When you care too much or try too hard (Turin being another example as he was particularly devastated by the suffering of Elves and Men, to the point that he tried to hard in trying to stop it) it seems that things have a bad way of working out, and not just for you.

They ignored the Valar, they ignored Eru, and Fëanor pretty much just cursed in his oath, which defines using the name of the Lord in vane. "As God is my witness, this will happen" and if you don't deliver on an oath you hold God as a direct witness to, then you are cursed and so are your heirs until doom has been decided.

Their overconfidence, overzealousness, and arrogance were their undoing, and the doom of many. The lesson learned from it was more valuable than anything else Fëanor, Turin, and Maeglin ever did. That lesson would serve to save others from the same fate. Without those lessons, these things would have happened later on in a later generation. We want the best for future generations, and the best is not to idly sit back and let them make ALL of the mistakes we made. The firstborn had the roughest time living in the world - they had to learn everything from the bottom up - what was poisonous to eat and what wasn't, what beings were dangerous to approach and those who were not. All of the proverbs we have today come from some great error made in the past that either doomed one or more people.

Maeglin didn't hear the Valar as at least some others did. He was interested in satisfying his own desires and getting a free ride, at least that's what it seems to be. Elves, be they free from most forms of illness, are definitely not free from 'mental' problems. Very few of the Elves from ages past survived to become wise. Those who did would be instrumental in destroying evil, because of the lessons they learned from many people, including Maeglin, Turin, Morwen, Hurin, Fëanor, and so on. What is wisdom but the loss of foolishness, and learning how to be responsible for your own actions?

Fëanor, unlike many others, seemed to wise up a bit, near the end. All Elves and Men learn from pretty much the same sorts of mistakes. Have you immortality or not, it really doesn't seem to make a difference at the end of the day when it comes to making mistakes. Nerdanel tried to temper her husband's rage and sometimes his foolishness, but Fëanor had just one fatal weakness - he didn't have the ability to listen to anyone but his own ambition. He was strong in life, and stubborn as any, but like they say, even the mightiest may be slain by one arrow. And as mighty a man as Fëanor, his goings-on would cause a lot of problems. Fëanor is a brush fire in the middle of a nation covered with dry leaves. Willing or not, he would cause some great troubles, but he was defiant to the last against Morgoth and fought bravely against Gothmog, even in his death rolls cursing Morgoth as he was taken away from the field. Though the Battle Under the Stars would be victorious for the forces of light, it was a monumental loss for them because Fëanor was lost.

But Maeglin, though he found the fortune of the Echoriath of Gondolin and forged weapons greater than those seen before, including the last and seventh "Steel" gate, had visions of grandeur and pursued his ambitions solely, whilst Fëanor would pursue both passion and the safety of his people and family. Maeglin didn't seem to care anything for the troubles of others. He was greedy. But through the lessons told from his story, many may have been saved. Sometimes the man doesn't matter, but his words do, and when even his words do not matter, the lesson learned from his mistakes do matter. Just as there are many levels of survival, each harder to accept than the one above, there are also different levels to which a person may be a hero. A hero may be mighty in battle and courageous, or may be simply doing what little he can to help his family, or he may be like Maeglin and consider his ambitions over the troubles of others but be a lesson for the future. He does remind me a lot of Grima Wormtongue though, but Grima Wormtongue was a poisonous snake who did only evil through fell words and witchcraft. What evil led these tragic characters to do what they did against their own people? Maeglin did do some good during his limited time, and that's worth remembering.


Also, that is correct - Maeglin didn't love Idril; he desired only to possess her and become heir to the Noldor and be revered. Maeglin was spoiled.

[Morris]

Originally Posted by Ingwe

Also, that is correct - Maeglin didn't love Idril; he desired only to possess her and become heir to the Noldor and be revered. Maeglin was spoiled.

This is stated as fact a lot, but it really depends on how you interpret a pretty short section of the Silmarillion.

... Yet he did not reveal his heart, and though not all things went as he would he endured it in silence, hiding his mind so that few could read it, unless it were Idril Celebrindal. For from his first days in Gondolin he had borne a grief, ever worsening that robbed him of all joy: he loved the beauty of Idril and desired her, without hope. The Eldar wedded not with kin so near, nor ever before had any desired to do so. And however that might be, Idril loved Maeglin not at all; and knowing his thought of her she loved him the less. For it seemed to her a thing strange and crooked in him, as indeed the Eldar ever since have deemed it: an evil fruit of the Kinslaying, whereby the shadow of the curse of Mandos fell upon the last hope of the Noldor. But as the years passed, still Maeglin watched Idril, and waited, and his love turned to darkness in his heart. And he sought the more to have his will in other matters, shirking no toil of burden, if he might thereby have power.

So, this isn't much to go on. Everything else Tolkien has to say about Maeglin happens after Tuor and Idril are married, when the worst possible damage has already been done. There's some clear statements and some more questionable interpretations that can be taken here though.

The interpretation that Maeglin viewed Idril as an object rather than actually loving her really only comes from the sentenced "loved her beauty and desired her". This is understandable, but Tolkien uses similar language to this for most of the great lover's meetings where the focus is on how captivated the man is by the woman's beauty. That sentence should also be weighed against "... his love turned to darkness... " which would seem to explicitly state that he did love her.

It also seems to be clearly stated that his desire for power came out of his hopeless desire for Idril, rather than driving it. His feelings for Idril came first, the ambition came second, so I'm not sure it's defensible to say that his feelings for Idril were only ever driven by ambition in the first place.

Other people have mentioned this already, but it's worth mentioning again: Maeglin rose to Turgon's right hand without needing to marry Idril at all. If she were only a means to an end (rulership of Gondolin), his feelings for her would have cooled by the point that he sat at Turgon's side and was his chosen regent.

The really interesting thing about this section is that even the Eldar later viewed Maeglin as an instrument of divine retribution on the crimes of the Noldor, rather than merely a traitor.