who's older?

[MasterMothra]

well of course it doesnt really matter. half the posts here really dont matter. it was just a question i asked myself the last time i read the sil. i simply wanted the opinions of others. my personal thought is that the dwarves were born first, whether it was illuvitar's will or not.

[Bacchus]

All of the arguments claiming that the dwarves were older are, in my opinion, based upon a faulty premise. Why does everyone assume that the Elves were created and then immediately awakened? The evidence in fact seems to argue the opposite view. The Valar refused to attack Melkor at Utumno because they knew not where the Children were to awaken.

SGH asked why Aul&euml bothered to create the Dwarves. Aul&euml himself answered this to Il&ugravevatar. The child can imitate the father with no thought of mockery.

The instruction by Aul&euml in speech I consider to be similar to training a parrot to speak. It had no meaning until the Fathers were given life by Il&ugravevatar.

[Nibs]

Originally posted by Bacchus
The instruction by Aule in speech I consider to be similar to training a parrot to speak. It had no meaning until the Fathers were given life by Iluvatar.

That final sentence is the issue, I thought. Was life given to the Dwarves by Iluvatar or did Aule do it on his own? It doesn't specify. Iluvatar knew about Aule's plan the whole time, and that makes it even tougher to figure out.

[Bacchus]

I don't see an issue there. "Thine offer I accepted even as it was made." Il&ugravevatar rewards Aul&euml for his humility and gives life to the Dwarves. This contrasts nicely with Melkor's pride and his ultimate impotance because of it.

[Findegil]

Speech is not realy a sign of life if it is seen while Aule's attention is on the speekers. The Valar could make a rock speek if they whiched, but only as long as they focused on it. When they left it to its owne it was a piece of stone again. Aule might have kreated beasts like Yavanna did, but I my oppion it was the attemp to do other wise, the attemp to creat incarnated beings, that Eru critisised.

And what else when not the destruction of the dwarves pretended Aule with the hammer? I think it is clear from what Eru say's afterwards, that Aule would he have had his will would have destroyed the dwarves but for Eru intervention.

Regards
Findegil

[Ñólendil]

If the Valar were incapable of giving life, then why did Aule even make the attempt. Eru intervened after Aule brought them into being and was somewhat angered with him for doing so. If Aule was not able to give them life, and this was something restricted to Eru only, then why bother in the first place? I don't think he at the time expected Eru to make an appearence. So I still find the whole process a bit contradictry.

It seems to me that Aulë had no idea it was impossible for him to create his own Children. "I desired no such lordship". Tolkien said he did what he did out of impatience. He was a maker, after all.

I don't see an issue there. "Thine offer I accepted even as it was made." Ilùvatar rewards Aulë for his humility and gives life to the Dwarves. This contrasts nicely with Melkor's pride and his ultimate impotance because of it.

Thank you!