Queer things you hear....

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by captain carrot

... 'Now let's go slowly here:' - ah ever the charmer, FB! -

never -

Never in the history of the whole moot, has such an indefensible position ever been taken, so recklessly and with such daring audacity!

Then you apparently haven't been around the moot for long. You should read more of our threads.

Let us not got slowly here!

Your overweening haste has landed you in a spot of bother, I fear. Do read on.

s a lamb to the slaughter will you be, if, as king kanute, you stand foursqaure against the incoming tide with only a stick to draw in the sand against the mighty sea ...

Actually, I'm more like Alfred at the Battle of Edington.....

[QUOTE]Were i you, i would re-read your opening position:{/QUOTE]
Please do reread my opening position. Its in message 11, a response to Sam who asks if the reference might be to the Nazgul. My response says "not at that stage, I don't think."

Apart from the incontrovertible evidence and the sheer strength of arguments that can be forwarded that the 'rumours' could easily be attributable to the nine

All dependent on "what ifs" and "I thinks" rather than on anything Tolkien actually wrote. You and Gordis can assume that the strange dwarves from far countries refer to Frodo's family history if you like, but I think that the dwarves of Erebor don't really count as strange dwarves since Frodo has seen plenty of them.

the whole point initially, was not did they refer directly to the nine:

I'm afraid you need to review the thread. The OP simply asks to what the phrase refers. It is not until message 10 that the Nazgul are introduced and Sam asked "could they have been refering to the Nazgul???" That seems to me to be fairly direct, though I acknowledge it may be read in a more general way. But to say that his "point" was not did they refer directly to the 9 is wishful reading.

BECAUSE they had not names in rumour - the question was, were in fact these unamed terrible creatures that had no name in rumour - actually referrring without knowledge in rumour to the Nazgul?

You've missed the point. The point was that if such tales of such creatures as the Nazgul are are rumors being talked about even in the environs of the Shire as early as 3017, then the Wise have surely heard about them and deduced who and what they were and so would have acted much sooner, thwarting Sauron's plans, as he well knew. So it isn't likely that Sauron was letting the 9 out on joy rides to spread terror etc. That he used one as a messenger to a specific locale does not general rumors spread about the West make.

As for the rest, both Olmer and Gor have added enough to, at the very least, make open the very real possibility that RUMOUR might very easily be referring to the Nazgul either directly or indirectly (i.e. the terrible things without name, were actually nazgul, but that RUMOUR did not yet know that or was able to confirm their name, hence they were terrible and nameless in rumour - but what in fact rumour alluded to was the nazgul)

Their arguments have already been dismantled.

There are about a billion other arguments, i just don't have time -

nor the patience to go slowly



Best, BB

Or wisdom apparently.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Then you apparently haven't been around the moot for long. You should read more of our threads.

Well, i wasn't being entirely serious old chap - just reacting with a wink to the 'Let's go slowly'

oh, i've read enough, thanks...



Alfie at Edington heh? I'll expect a half decent sally in the Spring then!

Their arguments have already been dismantled.

*gets popcorn out ... we'll see what they have to say on that score! * (though i must confess i hadn't noticed it myself)


Wisdom?
We'll see- when you sally forth out of your muddy position to cross your sword with BB's rapier.


best, BB

[elven dragonrider]

I completely disagree with the thought that they may be Nazgul, and you have been talking about it for some time. Not trying to be rude, but what evidence do you have to back up your theory? I merely think that they were monsters, whether they were created by Sauron is questionable.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by elven dragonrider

I merely think that they were monsters, whether they were created by Sauron is questionable.

Not trying to be rude, but what evidence do YOU have to back up your theory?

[carlrodd]

i don't think anyone has mentioned the balrog yet. dwarves from strange, distant places could easily have meant moria, and aside from durin's bane, which is only a cryptic reference itself, the balrog was certainly nameless. when the fellowship encountered it, only gandalf knew what it was. i understand that there most likely would have been no dwarves at all from balin's expedition left in moria at the time, but certainly dwarves from other places would have known about durin's bane, and the expedition, and considered the possibility that it was stirred again.

[elven dragonrider]

I am not saying that I have hard evidence to back up my theory. I merely think that LOTR does not happen to be an allegory, and that if I had written it, I probably would not have been referring to the Nazgul. Tolkien has so many creatures in Middle Earth, he must have some that are evil that are not the Nazgul, right?
(Not expecting you to agree, it's fine if you don't.)

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by elven dragonrider

Tolkien has so many creatures in Middle Earth, he must have some that are evil that are not the Nazgul, right?

By the Third Age the creatures of Tolkien's Middle earth were so few, that you can count them by fingers.
Which one in your opinion will fit the description better?

[Finrod Felagund]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

You're right, he was scared of them pretty bad. I bet he made Young Christopher clean the cobwebs pretty regularly...

I think I read somewhere that became afraid of them when he was in the war...

He was actually bitten by a tarantula as a small child in South Africa

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

By the Third Age the creatures of Tolkien's Middle earth were so few, that you can count them by fingers.
Wich one in your opinion will fit the description better?

I agree, especially if we remember the original quote:

It seemed that the evil power in Mirkwood had been driven out by the White Council only to reappear in greater strength in the old strongholds of Mordor. The Dark Tower had been rebuilt, it was said. From there the power was spreading far and wide, and away far east and south there were wars and growing fear. Orcs were multiplying again in the mountains. Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons. And there were murmured hints of creatures more terrible than all these, but they had no name.

So the creatures in question are worse than orcs and trolls. They were spotted recently, it seems, after 2951 (when the Dark Tower was rebuilt) and they had no name.
So what nameless (to the dwarves) creatures worse than trolls recently appeared in the Wide World?

Dragons? - dragons were not unnamed esp. to Dwarves and the last big dragon - Smaug- was killed about 70 years ago.
The Barlog? It appeared in TA 1980 - a LO-ONG time ago and was seen again during the war of orcs and Dwarves. No news really. AND Dwarves called it something - Durin's Bane.
The Watcher in the Water - maybe. But then why is it referred to in plural?
Fell Beasts? Hardly. It seems few have seen them before the very end of 3018-begginnning of 3019. And were they really worse than trolls?

So even from this POV the nazgul who sat quietly in Minas Morgul for 1000 years and then since 2951 started to be seen again were definitely a possibility.

[Butterbeer]

the snowdrops are coming up, the days are getting longer ... still hiding out Forkbeard?

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I agree, especially if we remember the original quote:


So the creatures in question are worse than orcs and trolls. They were spotted recently, it seems, after 2951 (when the Dark Tower was rebuilt) and they had no name.

Between 2951 and Oct. 3016? We've covered this. You have no evidence for such a sighting, certainly not of such a sighting that would become news and cause dwarves from a far country to seek refuge in the Blue Mtns. To this point, if the dwarves indeed are of Erebor, how do they know the "messenger" is worse than orcs and trolls? Even at this juncture, they merely shudder when he utters his veiled threats, with the hiss of snakes. Hardly accounts for a report that things worse than orcs and trolls are about. The visit to Dain is the ONLY such sighting we can point to.

So what nameless (to the dwarves) creatures worse than trolls recently appeared in the Wide World?

Dragons? - dragons were not unnamed esp. to Dwarves and the last big dragon - Smaug- was killed about 70 years ago.
The Barlog? It appeared in TA 1980 - a LO-ONG time ago and was seen again during the war of orcs and Dwarves. No news really. AND Dwarves called it something - Durin's Bane.

But there are other balrogs (possibly), and from what little the dwarves said about it, they didn't know WHAT Durin's Bane was nor name it willingly. And if these dwarves are from other places than Erebor (Durin's House) and so not of Durin's race, they would hardly be naming it or any other creature Durin's Bane. It was not seen in the war of orcs and dwarves, but sensed by Dain. And even so Balin and company nonetheless went to Moria. Such news was the reawakening of the balrog that Celeborn and Galadriel DO NOT KNOW THAT THE BALROG IS ACTIVE again, in spite of it having been so nearly 30 years by the point of 3018 when the Fellowship comes to Lorien. So that might indeed be news if that balrog or another is so referred to.

The Watcher in the Water - maybe. But then why is it referred to in plural?

We're also told that the Watcher is but one being: there are many evil things that gnaw at the roots of the mountains and that Sauron doesn't know, they were there before him. The Watcher is but one that was forced out, either deliberately or accidentally.

Fell Beasts? Hardly. It seems few have seen them before the very end of 3018-begginnning of 3019. And were they really worse than trolls?

Interesting. You can not provide evidence of the Nazgul being seen between 2951 and 3017, yet you accept that, but then claim that no one has seen the Fell Beasts? Please....

So even from this POV the nazgul who sat quietly in Minas Morgul for 1000 years and then since 2951 started to be seen again were definitely a possibility.

Where? Who saw them between 2951 and autumn 3016 when one came to Dain? Where is this written? Citations if you please.

On the other hand, Gandalf tells us that Mirkwood was full of "dreadful tales" (tales of dread) of Gollum, who sneaks into windows and eats babies in their cribs. That's certainly worse than orcs and trolls and would be news dwarves would pick up on the road. There are certainly horrible spiders and other evils things in Mirkwood and other places, and I'd say those are worse than orcs and trolls (one can fight those, spiders and such are not just horrible, they prey on the psyche too); wolves of the sort the Fellowship are fell and in many ways worse than orcs....I'd rather be in an orcs hands and cruelly treated than in a wolf's maw any day.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

the snowdrops are coming up, the days are getting longer ... still hiding out Forkbeard?

still nattering empty-headedly BB? T'would seem so. You have yet to answer the questions put to you, as do Gordis and Olmer.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Olmer

By the Third Age the creatures of Tolkien's Middle earth were so few, that you can count them by fingers.
Which one in your opinion will fit the description better?

Really? HMMM. Let;s see. Shelob, Spiders of Mirkwood, fell beasts, Watcher in the Waters of Moria, other evils that gnaw at the roots of the mountains, Caradhras, stone-giants, evil ents and huorns, Gollum, balrog....that's two hands, and taking them in groups where possible rather than individually. I'm sure I've missed a few.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Their arguments have already been dismantled.

I haven't seen any arguments "dismantled". Instead, at a loss for better arguments, you turned to discussing fonts I used in my posts. What will be next? Finding fault with my paragraphing?

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Between 2951 and Oct. 3016? We've covered this. You have no evidence for such a sighting, certainly not of such a sighting that would become news and cause dwarves from a far country to seek refuge in the Blue Mtns. To this point, if the dwarves indeed are of Erebor, how do they know the "messenger" is worse than orcs and trolls? Even at this juncture, they merely shudder when he utters his veiled threats, with the hiss of snakes. Hardly accounts for a report that things worse than orcs and trolls are about. The visit to Dain is the ONLY such sighting we can point to.

There is one - in fact three - sightings of a nazgul at Erebor, well documented. Then, as I've pointed out, there was the nazgul messenger constantly circulating between Dol Guldur and Mordor. He could have had other appointments as well, this messenger. Also we have no evidence that the Seven at Minas Morgul were sitting put all the time - most likely not. Otherwise how could Aragorn have met a nazgul? He hardly knocked at the gates of Minas Morgul to have a chat. Most likely he met one during his travels in the East or South. Consider also that by 3019 there were alliances forged between Modror and Harad, Khand and Far Harad, as well as with some countries in the East. I think it were likely the nazgul who were sent as ambassadors to these countries to ensure their loyalty - much like a nazgul was sent to Dain and likely also to Brand of Dale. Some of them might have visited the Dwarven settlements in the East and South threatening the Dwarves "Join us, or else..."
It looks like East of Anduin the nazgul were no big rarity. One thing they didn't do -before 3018 - cross the Anduin. All this was covered before both by Olmer and myself.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

But there are other balrogs (possibly),

I would gladly see evidence of THAT. Do you have it?
Everything said in LOTR leads us to think that Barlogs were generally believed long extinct.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Such news was the reawakening of the balrog that Celeborn and Galadriel DO NOT KNOW THAT THE BALROG IS ACTIVE again, in spite of it having been so nearly 30 years by the point of 3018 when the Fellowship comes to Lorien. So that might indeed be news if that balrog or another is so referred to.

I think the Wise didn't know that Durin's Bane was a barlog. Gandalf surely didn't know it before he saw the creature in Moria.
And how could it be that "Celeborn and Galadriel DO NOT KNOW THAT THE BALROG IS ACTIVE again", while some Dwarves from far away countries would know it????

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

We're also told that the Watcher is but one being: there are many evil things that gnaw at the roots of the mountains and that Sauron doesn't know, they were there before him. The Watcher is but one that was forced out, either deliberately or accidentally

Only one company of Dwarves has gone to explore Moria after the War of Dwarves and Orcs - Balin's. So you are suggesting that one of Balin's company escaped and instead of going to tell his tale to his kinsmen at Erebor, he flew West and turned out telling scary tales to the hobbits?

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Interesting. You can not provide evidence of the Nazgul being seen between 2951 and 3017, yet you accept that, but then claim that no one has seen the Fell Beasts? Please....

Are you nor aware that the Fell Beasts were quite new means of transportation for the nazgul - since the end of 3018 only?
I have 2 quotes to back this up:

Gandalf: " I look into [Saruman's] mind and I see his doubt. He has no woodcraft. He believes that the horsemen slew and burned all upon the field of battle; but he does not know whether the Orcs were bringing any prisoners or not. And he does not know of the quarrel between his servants and the Orcs of Mordor; nor does he know of the Winged Messenger.'
'The Winged Messenger!' cried Legolas. 'I shot at him with the bow of Galadriel above Sarn Gebir, and I felled him from the sky. He filled us all with fear. What new terror is this?'
'One that you cannot slay with arrows,' said Gandalf. 'You only slew his steed. It was a good deed; but the Rider was soon horsed again. For he was a Nazgûl, one of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steeds. Soon their terror will overshadow the last armies of our friends, cutting off the sun. But they have not yet been allowed to cross the River, and Saruman does not know of this new shape in which the Ringwraiths have been clad. LOTR: The White Rider

Note :NEW shape, the one Saruman knew not about. And Saruman had a palantir and long had most of his attention concentrated on Barad Dur.

Also there is a more direct evidence from Tolkien Reader's Companion p.262-3

It was no doubt at the end of 1418 that Sauron (S. likely aided by Angmar) bethought him of the winged mounts; and yet withheld them, until things became almost desperate and he was forced to launch his war in haste. Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring)

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Where? Who saw them between 2951 and autumn 3016 when one came to Dain? Where is this written? Citations if you please.

Ohh... we already covered this. Aragorn was one, no doubt. There must have been someone to report Khamul occupying Dol-Guldur and having another nazgul as his messenger.
How could this info find its way into Gondor or Rivendell chronicles (Tale of Years) if NO ONE AT ALL saw them?? There was not a single nazgul who wrote his "Memoires" after the War of the Ring, was there now?

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

On the other hand, Gandalf tells us that Mirkwood was full of "dreadful tales" (tales of dread) of Gollum, who sneaks into windows and eats babies in their cribs. That's certainly worse than orcs and trolls and would be news dwarves would pick up on the road. There are certainly horrible spiders and other evils things in Mirkwood and other places, and I'd say those are worse than orcs and trolls (one can fight those, spiders and such are not just horrible, they prey on the psyche too); wolves of the sort the Fellowship are fell and in many ways worse than orcs....I'd rather be in an orcs hands and cruelly treated than in a wolf's maw any day.

Well, what is worse is a matter of personal taste. I would prefer a wolf to orcs.
Gollum might have generated some dreadful tales - but would the far-away Dwarves passing by be so very impressed?
Horrible spiders - I don't think they were fresh news - I think they lived in Mirkwood ever since Sauron took shape in Dol Guldur. All the travelers through Mirkwood must have been wary of them for ages.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by NelyafinweMaitimo

That is my FAVOURITE part of that book.

Wild beasts often presented very scary elements in Tolkien's work. For instance, Fingon was stalked by starving beasts on his way to Thangorodrim in The Silmarillion. Ungoliant, a wild creature, pretty much got the best of Morgoth when she trapped him in her webs in the Lammoth. Her daughter Shelop was certainly scary enough, as were the spiders of Mirkwood. When Tolkien refrences dark, nameless creatures, I always think of three things: Gollum, Mirkwood's spiders, and that odd frog with the light.

Primarily, though, I recall the spiders, lurking in dark crevices, because Tolkien was so deathly afraid of them.

He wrote in his letters that, despite the incident mentioned later in the topic, he in fact wasn't afraid of spiders, and often rescued them from the bath-water.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I haven't seen any arguments "dismantled".

Then you should read a little more closely.

[QUOTE}Instead, at a loss for better arguments, you turned to discussing fonts I used in my posts. What will be next? Finding fault with my paragraphing?[/Quote]

Anyone who reads that single comment in a long post and a) dismisses the rest of the post to focus on a single comment and b) thinks that the comment was about fonts needs some significant assistance with basic reading comprehension. Let me help you out: the point I made is that your conclusion that only Dain and his counselors know the contents of the messenger's embassy. That is certainly a valid reading, but not the only valid reading, and certainly there is no evidence to support it either way. Shouting it at us doesn't make it a valid conclusion. As I said at the time: "There's nothing in the book that would indicate this,".

BTW, before we go further, there is a slight chronology problem as well. Gloin tells the Council of Elrond that "about a year ago..." the messenger came from Mordor. This would be Oct. 3017, a year before the council in Oct. 3018. But the problem there is that according to the Tale of Years and UT's The Hunt for the Ring Sauron didn't capture Gollum until sometime in the first half of 3017,(UT: Gollum was captured in Mordor in the year 3017) and so didn't know of the Ring's existence for certain, that Biblo Baggins a hobbit and had been to the Lonely Mountain in the company of dwarves. All that information was learned from Gollum or after Gollum's capture. It was in June 3017 that the 9 were sent out in search of the Ring. If the messenger to Dain and Bard is a Nazgul as seems likely from the description, then a Nazgul on horseback needs time to travel from Mordor to the Lonely Mtn and back and then be available to go with the W-K in June. So say Gollum was captured in January, the Nazgul would take 3-4 weeks to travel north, 3-4 to get back. So at the earliest the messenger can have reached Dain say in mid-Feb and at the latest in mid-May. Gloin is reporting to the council on Oct. 25. In no way can it be "about a year ago". Either Gloin is exaggerating or wrong, or UT and the Tale of Years is wrong.

There is one - in fact three - sightings of a nazgul at Erebor, well documented. Then, as I've pointed out, there was the nazgul messenger constantly circulating between Dol Guldur and Mordor. He could have had other appointments as well, this messenger.

Yes, but do recall that you are claiming that these visits to Dain are enough to cause dwarves to not only say that the messenger is worse than trolls and orcs (not supported by the text as I have pointed out; they shudder, but they certainly do not quail and run) and even more importantly for dwarves of the Lonely Mountain to seek [b]REFUGE[/b} in the West, as also pointed out previously. So yes, 3 visits to Dain in 3017. That is all we have evidence of, period.

As for the "messenger", there is no evidence in the text that he was "constantly circulating" and none that "he could have had other appointments as well". If you want to rewrite Tolkien, I can't stop you, but I'd prefer to discuss the actual text rather than your speculations about the activities of messengers we're not told about.

Also we have no evidence that the Seven at Minas Morgul were sitting put all the time - most likely not.

We have no evidence they weren't. There is indirect evidence however. Gandalf tells us in the Shadow of the Past that it has been many years since the 9 WALKED ABROAD...." and UT: The Hunt for the Ring tells us that Sauron was relunctant to use the 9 and disguised their coming forth so that the Wise would not perceive his real purposes. Taken together, these indirectly suggest that the 9 had lain quiet, preparing for the War to come and not gone galavanting over Middle Earth.

Otherwise how could Aragorn have met a nazgul? He hardly knocked at the gates of Minas Morgul to have a chat. Most likely he met one during his travels in the East or South.

Most likely in the environs of Mordor itself. A) When he was disguised as Thorongil and left Gondor his face was set towards Mordor (and the road of course crosses Anduin and goes toward Minas Morgul, we needn't speculate far that Aragorn did a bit of spying and had some close calls doing so). B) Aragorn hunted Gollum all the way to the Black Gate.

When we first meet Strider we're told that after he tells the hobbits of the horror of the 9 that he sat in the chair in some "distant memory". At the Council of Elrond Aragorn tells us that if one walks as he has to the Black Gate perils he will have. We need not look any further than Mordor's borders to discover where Aragorn encountered the 9 or some of them anyway.

Consider also that by 3019 there were alliances forged between Modror and Harad, Khand and Far Harad, as well as with some countries in the East. I think it were likely the nazgul who were sent as ambassadors to these countries to ensure their loyalty - much like a nazgul was sent to Dain and likely also to Brand of Dale.

But most of these had been traditional allies of Mordor in ages past, worshipping Sauron as a god, and Morgoth before him. Why would he need to send the Nazgul to them to "ensure" their loyalty? Besides, once again you're speculating with no evidence to support it. The Nazgul was sent to Dain and Brand not to ensure their loyalty but to seek information about the Ring. By this point Sauron knows that that is not in the East.

Some of them might have visited the Dwarven settlements in the East and South threatening the Dwarves "Join us, or else..."

Didn't seem to work, did it? Interestingly enough I suggested that this news of far off events that Frodo gathers was in fact from the East from these very non-Durin dwarves. I do not however agree that their response is from Nazgul coming to threaten them. Do remember that even Nazgul must be able to return from such missions and be availabe by June 3018 when they are sent out. Can't do that if they're busy visiting the East. And again, no evidence.

It looks like East of Anduin the nazgul were no big rarity.

So you take 3 visits in 3018 "as no big rarity." 3 times is still rare in my book, and the book Tolkien wrote actually says that before this they haven't been abroad in years. So Tolkien, you know, the guy who wrote the book, actually seems to think that the Nazgul haven't been making extended trips on the East side of the Anduin, beyond the noted 3.

One thing they didn't do -before 3018 - cross the Anduin. All this was covered before both by Olmer and myself.

Actually, Olmer doesn't cover this at all. No slight meant to Olmer, but read his posts: he doesn't cover this point. As for you, well congratulations, but I might point out that I covered it first, my second post to this thread which predated yours makes just this point.

I would gladly see evidence of THAT. Do you have it?
Everything said in LOTR leads us to think that Barlogs were generally believed long extinct.

Re: the balrogs, yes I have evidence. In The Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath we are told that in the great battle at Thangorodrim "The Balrogs were destroyed save [b]*SOME FEW*]/b] that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth...." We know of one; Durin's Bane. There are others. It is certainly possible that one or another has been awoken elsewhere in Middle Earth.

As for what is "generally believed" about balrogs being extinct, um, in case you hadn't noted there Gordis, there's a big one in the middle of Book II of the Lord of the Rings....apparently their belief was wrong? Just a thought....

I think the Wise didn't know that Durin's Bane was a barlog. Gandalf surely didn't know it before he saw the creature in Moria.

Here at least we agree.

And how could it be that "Celeborn and Galadriel DO NOT KNOW THAT THE BALROG IS ACTIVE again", while some Dwarves from far away countries would know it????

Perhaps a rereading is in order? Several places in Book II, especially when they report the events of Moria, the reader is told by the characters that elves and dwarves don't like each other much (hence the wonder at the friendship of Gimli and Legolas that grows in the rest of the book) and certainly don't tell each other things. Whereas the House of Durin, of which Dain II rules, has certainly called on the other dwarf houses and is in contact with them. When not hearing from Balin and fear of Durin's Bane being whispered, it is certainly possible to have communicated with other dwarves in the world this concern without the elves who generally dwell deep in the forest knowing what was going on in Moria.

Are you nor aware that the Fell Beasts were quite new means of transportation for the nazgul - since the end of 3018 only?

You've missed the point. The point was that you trot out an idea that has no evidence to support it while at the same time rejecting someone else's suggestion that at least has some thread to support it, however tenuous.

Ohh... we already covered this. Aragorn was one, no doubt. There must have been someone to report Khamul occupying Dol-Guldur and having another nazgul as his messenger.

Yes, we've both mentioned it, and as careful reading shows Aragorn most likely encountered Nazgul when in the immediate environs of Mordor rather than around Laketown.

How could this info find its way into Gondor or Rivendell chronicles (Tale of Years) if NO ONE AT ALL saw them?? There was not a single nazgul who wrote his "Memoires" after the War of the Ring, was there now?

This is your argument? Surely you jest! TA 2480 tells us that SAURON began to people Moria with his creatures...how did that get in there, since the Wise at that point didn't even know whether it was Sauron at Dol Guldur???!!!!?? And there's a good deal about dwarves in those chronicles that neither Gonodor nor Rivendell knew....the annals also tell us about the Watchful Peace and that it was Sauron, and that Sauron went to the east.....hmm, how do they know that? If someone saw him, then they'd have known it was Sauron a millenium sooner than they did.....there's a good deal in the Tale of Years that is like this, authorial and not character driven. So no, I fear that your argument here is dust. As are your others.....It truly baffles me that when the books tell us that the Nazgul ain't been around until middle 3018 that there are readers who have to say "Yes they were! They were making treaties in the east!"

Gollum might have generated some dreadful tales - but would the far-away Dwarves passing by be so very impressed?

Who knows? You certainly don't, so don't pretend. If the dwarves are simply passing on news that not only has E;ves. Men and the beasts and birds of the forest frightened, and skeeved, it matters not whether they were impressed or not. It matters that they passed on the news.

Horrible spiders - I don't think they were fresh news - I think they lived in Mirkwood ever since Sauron took shape in Dol Guldur. All the travelers through Mirkwood must have been wary of them for ages.

Really? Huh, cause I know of some dwarves and a hobbit that were snared by them, and but for the hobbits ingenuity and pluck, a dozen dwarves would have been spider food. So much for that. There are many evils in Middle Earth, not all of them serve Sauron, and not all of them are explored in depth. We need not attribute every evil to Sauron and his minions.

[Peter_20]

I think the author was referring to certain creatures that hadn't yet GOT a name, but were known and named later on.

[Forkbeard]

Peter-20's comment prompted me to add to my comments here too. In thinking about this further I would note 2 passages that have not been brought up heretofore.

The first is at the Council of Elrond where Aragorn reports that the Rangers guard the Shire/Bree from creatures that would freeze Barliman's blood. This might refer to the Nazgul, but I doubt it since the Rangers have been guarding the Shire/Bree for some years, and not from the Nazgul--and I take Aragorn's words to refer to a longer period of guarding than just the recent Nazgul activity in the area. Further, he speaks of the Rangers' guarding as successfully guarding the area for the peace of mind of Barliman and others, and the Rangers clearly failed when it came to the Nazgul.

More importantly though is a seldom noted passage in Book VI, Homeward Bound. This is LONG after the Nazgul and Sauron have been removed as a threat in Middle Earth and certainly are nowhere in the area. Barliman reports to Gandalf and the hobbits: "For there's worse than robbers about. Wolves were howling round the fences last winter. And there dark shapes in the woods, dreadful things that it makes the blood run cold to think of." Are these things "worse than orcs"? Well, I don't know of any orc who is described as making the blood run cold. And it can't be the Nazgul, they're not around anymore.

It seems to me that if we read these two passages plus the vague threat of things worse than orcs and trolls that Frodo hears about from strange dwarves from far off countries, we see that are things in Middle Earth not associated with Nazgul or Sauron that are nonetheless evil and frightening. Thus, we need not assume, and have no evidence for, that the news Frodo hears is referring to the 9.