On him alone is any charge laid

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by ecthelion

I don't think that was really the case, because we always see the the ring pulling people to it, and I don't think the ring really cared about who was its owner finally.

There is one instance in which the ring caused his owner to "lose" it - Gollum. As far as the ring "caring" who its owner was, I think you are wrong (and going against your previous position)

Originally Posted by The shadow of the past, FotR

The Ring was trying to get back to its master. It had slipped from Isildur's hand and betrayed him; then when a chance came it caught poor Deal, and he was murdered; and after that Gollum, and it had devoured him. It could make no further use of him: he was too small and mean; and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his deep pool again. So now, when its master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum.

Originally Posted by ecthelion

But I don't think he would have offered it even to Galadriel after the episode with Boromir. If that scene would have come before, would we still have the scene with Galadriel? I wonder...

On a similar line of though I argued previously:

At least, in this chain of events, Frodo would see what would happen to others when tempted; and perhaps this helped him a lot, when he later faced Boromir, who requested to relieve him of this burden.

I guess we both agree that Frodo going through a situation in which the ring is about to depart from him is quite... educational for him.

[carlrodd]

seems to me that galadriel was deluded into thinking that she would become a great queen and ruler with the ring. this would be consistent with the how the ring affected many others. sam envisioned himself as samwise the great etc. galadriel was simply a noldor. certainly she was immensely powerful, but she would have had no more control over the ring than any other in the end. it makes sense that frodo would feel like he could entrust it to her, and i think at the time, he seems like he would have been willing to forsake his quest had she been willing to receive the ring. other evidence of galadriel's potential inability to keep the ring without becoming simply a pawn of sauron would be saruman's response to sauron. saruman was a maia, and presumably much closer in power to sauron than any other in middle earth at the time, yet he was enthralled by sauron in a sense, at a time when sauron didn't even have the ring. how much less powerful was galadriel?

[Landroval]

seems to me that galadriel was deluded into thinking that she would become a great queen and ruler with the ring

Tolkien does admit this as a posibility in relation to Galadriel:

Originally Posted by Letter #246

It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.

However, the books and the letters toy around with the idea of someone else taking over the ring - although, the same letter cited above states that no one could be expected to withhold the ring from Sauron in his immediate vicinity - save maybe Gandalf. When Tolkien states that none of the mortal would be able to do this particular act ("not even Aragorn"), he implies that the mortals (and the immortals all the more) could be able to do this in less challenging situations - with Sauron far away.

how much less powerful was galadriel?

It should be noted that in Unfinished Tales, the reason given for Saruman falling such easily to Sauron is his already existing state of wickedness. On the other hand, Denethor was able to withstand the corrupting power of Sauron.

[carlrodd]

Originally Posted by Landroval

It should be noted that in Unfinished Tales, the reason given for Saruman falling such easily to Sauron is his already existing state of wickedness. On the other hand, Denethor was able to withstand the corrupting power of Sauron.

i had considered this point when i was writing. saruman seems almost to have entered middle earth with dubious intentions...if that is possible. and his attachment to the earth, manifested in physical machinations, and obsession with ring lore seems to have hastened, or exacerbated his corruption.

of course, i also considered that a very 'good' being, such as galadriel, might be quicker to trust in her power and 'goodness' too much, and possibly be more inclined to wield the ring in an effort to do 'good', which she alludes to anyway when talking to frodo.

[Landroval]

saruman seems almost to have entered middle earth with dubious intentions...if that is possible.

I think so. His seed was already planted when he became jealous of Varda's remark at their last council in Aman.

of course, i also considered that a very 'good' being, such as galadriel, might be quicker to trust in her power and 'goodness' too much

Would she? She participated in the kinslaying - although on the good side, if there ever was one. She also didn't return, even after the curse was cast on the noldor. She didn't even return when the curse was lifter after the war of wrath, even after the elves were "sternly counselled" by the valar to return. She (among the others) didn't have the moral courage to destroy the power ring(s); she used the ring in what was the "minor melkorism" of the elves, preserving Middle Earth into a king of paradise, which constitutes, according to Tolkien, a "veiled attack on the gods". I think she was quite aware of her shortcomings.

[carlrodd]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I think so. His seed was already planted when he became jealous of Varda's remark at their last council in Aman.

Would she? She participated in the kinslaying - although on the good side, if there ever was one. She also didn't return, even after the curse was cast on the noldor. She didn't even return when the curse was lifter after the war of wrath, even after the elves were "sternly counselled" by the valar to return. She (among the others) didn't have the moral courage to destroy the power ring(s); she used the ring in what was the "minor melkorism" of the elves, preserving Middle Earth into a king of paradise, which constitutes, according to Tolkien, a "veiled attack on the gods". I think she was quite aware of her shortcomings.

i have never really considered what i guess really are questionable aspects of galadriel's persona and history. i suppose since she was closely in league with the 'light' elements of third age, that i always took for granted her 'goodness'. then again, elrond did something very similar in imladris, and i would still consider him to be 'good' as well.

interesting point about saruman as well. it's a wonder, assuming that the valar who 'lobbied' for his being a representative sensed this, allowed him to go. and if they knew olorin was especially wise, and was favored, why not make him the chief of the istari?

[Butterbeer]

Welcome, carlrodd - you bring up many interesting points, both by the wayside or as the crow flies - either way ...

I look forward to debating with you.

best, BB

[Landroval]

interesting point about saruman as well. it's a wonder, assuming that the valar who 'lobbied' for his being a representative sensed this, allowed him to go.

Hm, Saruman isn't the only follower of Aule who went astray - consider Sauron; even Aule himself almost tripped over with the dwarves.

It doesn't look like the valar were keen on using veto powers against someone proposed by one of them - after all, there does seem to be a bit of a shortage of volunteers, seeing that Manwe almost begged Gandalf to go.

Then again, Tolkien points in the letters that even the valar are tainted, at least as much as to make errors. So even if they perceived his evil, it must have been at that time only buddying, so they must have considered it as coming with the territory of being in Arda - and therefore of an acceptable risk.

Edit:

and if they knew olorin was especially wise, and was favored, why not make him the chief of the istari?

I don't think the valar intended any to be chief - the leader of the council was "democratically" elected by its members, part of whom were elves. True enough, at least Cirdan and Galadriel realised who the greater of the istari was. I wonder who were the dumb elves that voted otherwise.

[carlrodd]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Hm, Saruman isn't the only follower of Aule who went astray - consider Sauron; even Aule himself almost tripped over with the dwarves.

It doesn't look like the valar were keen on using veto powers against someone proposed by one of them - after all, there does seem to be a bit of a shortage of volunteers, seeing that Manwe almost begged Gandalf to go.

Then again, Tolkien points in the letters that even the valar are tainted, at least as much as to make errors. So even if they perceived his evil, it must have been at that time only buddying, so they must have considered it as coming with the territory of being in Arda - and therefore of an acceptable risk.

Edit:

I don't think the valar intended any to be chief - the leader of the council was "democratically" elected by its members, part of whom were elves. True enough, at least Cirdan and Galadriel realised who the greater of the istari was. I wonder who were the dumb elves that voted otherwise.

i thought gandalf referred to saruman as the chief or head of his order(meaning the istari) when speaking to frodo. these matters of the nature of valar and maiar, and all manner of greater beings have gotten me thinking of some of the big reasons i am not so much a fan of PJ's movies. i don't mean to derail, but i posted over on a thread in the movies section pertaining to how tolkien would have viewed the films. i would love to get more into that discussion if anyone is willing.

to keep this somewhat on topic, sauron and his ring.........
the valar were not permitted to bring force against the children of iluvatar, hence them deferring to eru when ar-pharazon brought his fleet to valinor. they also allowed the missteps of the noldor to run their course, and did not intervene with morgoth until the noldor were thoroughly defeated. however, by the time sauron had established himself in as the 'lord' of middle earth, there would seem to have been no reason for them not to come and reign in one of their own. arda was their creation...why allow sauron to cause so much grief? and why send maiar that could not, and were not intended to contest his power? why not send tulkas and orome to smack him around and bring him back in chains? he certainly was no morgoth....they probably wouldn't have broken a sweat.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Seeing Gandalf's words:

it seems that Gandalf is generalizing from what the rings of power are/behave - and, most importantly, he has one himself. He is not out of the loop, he doesn't receive information second-handedly. He would know himself what he is talking about, after having his ring for almost two millennia..

Then what the heck he was pulling Frodo's legs, telling him that he, the Maia and the wielder of Narya, DID NOT RECOGNIZE the Ring of Power? The crucial link in Ring's network chain!
If you implying that the Ring had a pull on Galadriel, then I even can't imagine of such enormous pull on the more powerful entity as Gandalf with his Ring. So, according to you words, he knew in what kind of way this artifact is affecting you, and when he felt the pull, he recognized the Ring instantly and jumped away from it as a nun from a "Playboy".
He knew right away that the Ring will bond with the keeper, and Elrond knew too.
This is why they made a theater of two actors: "On him alone is any charge laid."
Indeed...

You're kidding, right?. How could there be no harm in becoming the worst enemy of creation - even if we are talking purely on moral grounds? Do you really see Galadriel as such an amoral person? I believe that is very out of touch with the work, esspecially since in the letters Tolkien admits to christian connections in regards to this character

No, I am not.
She HAS BEEN the worst Enemy of Creation. She wanted to rule the world and in the same time to embalm it, to stop the time, to stop a progress. She wanted to go against the design of the Creator. In a way she was worst than Sauron, because he was promoting a technology and the building of cities.

Maybe, the whole his idea of making the Ring of Power was to put some restrains on the overzealous preservers of the Old World, and in this way to shield Middle-earth from another "Numenor". Seems, Ery did not mind his intervention, did not send Tulcas or the eagles of Manve on his head.

But this is OFF TOP. In this thread we are talking about Frodo.

P.S.Tolkien introduced the christian connection much later, when Tolkien the Writer under a Divination sease to exist and Tolkien the Promoter of his Book has surfaced instead..

[Landroval]

however, by the time sauron had established himself in as the 'lord' of middle earth, there would seem to have been no reason for them not to come and reign in one of their own. arda was their creation

Though Arda was their creation, the Children of Eru were not:

Originally Posted by Of the beginning of days, Silmarillion

For Elves and Men are the Children of Iluvatar; and since they understood not fully that theme by which the Children entered into the Music, none of the Ainur dared to add anything to their fashion. For which reason the Valar are to these kindreds rather their elders and their chieftains than their masters; and if ever in their dealings with Elves and Men the Ainur have endeavoured to force them when they would not be guided, seldom has this turned to good, howsoever good the intent.

why allow sauron to cause so much grief?

Originally Posted by Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, iii, Myths Transformed, HoME X

Sauron, however, was a problem that Men had to deal with finally: the first of the many concentrations of Evil into definite power-points that they would have to combat, as it was also the last of those in 'mythological' personalized (but non-human) form.

why not send tulkas and orome to smack him around and bring him back in chains? he certainly was no morgoth....they probably wouldn't have broken a sweat.

Indeed!!

Then what the heck he was pulling Frodo's legs, telling him that he, the Maia and the wielder of Narya, DID NOT RECOGNIZE the Ring of Power?

He told Frodo he began guessing it was the One Ring ever since a shadow fell on his heart after he heard the curious story of Bilbo.
If you implying that the Ring had a pull on Galadriel, then I even can't imagine of such enormous pull on the more powerful entity as Gandalf with his Ring.

The fact that Gandalf felt no powerful drive towards Bilbo's ring throughout all those years only adds to my presupposition (I myself am not yet completely convinced by it) that the ring will avoid those whom it can hardly leave (or worst, who could master it, even in the presence of Sauron, as Gandalf may). Gandalf refused the ring only when he knew what it was; he based his final acceptance on "scientific" grounds (testing the ring with fire) not his impressions of it.

Generally speaking, a hobbit was the most resilient ringbearer possible, and this Gandalf knew; he also knew Frodo and his allegiance to good. I don't think that at that time there was anyone else who could have taken the ring. Perhaps Gandalf felt, just like Tolkien, that Frodo had the necessary amount of inner power (not too much, not too little) to carry the ring, at least to Imladris. We should also take into account that Gandalf may have his bits of foreknowledge, and that may include Frodo, seeing how he talks of destiny.

She wanted to rule the world

No, she wanted to rule realms; she also didn't conquer lands - Lothlorien was not a land taken by force. She established herself quite peacefully in those warring times.

and in the same time to embalm it

The acting of embalming of her realm (again, not the world) came with the ring of power of Celebrimbor; previously, I doubt that embalming occurred in anything more than art. Feel free to counter that.

She wanted to go against the design of the Creator.

In the initial design of the creator, there was no decay and corruption as witnessed in Arda Marred; if anything, she was trying to preserve the original design of the creator.

In a way she was worst than Sauron, because he was promoting a technology and the building of cities.

Of Sauron it is said that he walked the same ruinous path into the void as Melkor; this can only result into the same complete destruction of all creation that Melkor envisioned.

Maybe, the whole his idea of making the Ring of Power was to put some restrains on the overzealous preservers of the Old World, and in this way to shield Middle-earth from another "Numenor".

So, again, how were the elves preserving Middle Earth before the rings of power? And how could that preserving cause another Akallabeth?

Tolkien introduced the christian connection much later, when Tolkien the Writer under a Divination sease to exist and Tolkien the Promoter of his Book has surfaced instead..

I have seen this often. Please give a direct answer to a direct question: do you think Tolkien lied when he said "I think it is true that I owe much of this character to Christian and Catholic teaching and imagination about Mary"?

[Jon S.]

No one's perfect (I mean this quite seriously in the context of this thread).