Frodo, the epic hero?

Renille · 02-06-2002, 11:57 PM

I am reading the Odyssey in English class, and today we were discussing the qualities of an epic hero. As I was taking notes on the subject, I made all these strange connections with Frodo. I had never really associated Frodo with Hercules or Odysseus, but the connection was there as I notcied the criteria of a hero (according to my teacher)-

1. Often of obscure origin. (well no...)
2.Makes a long journey
3.He is not a fool, but not invincible
4.A hero's "way" is not always clear.
5.He does have a goal
6.He always has some kind of guide
7.During the journey, the hero descends into either physical or figurative darkness.
8.When the hero emerges, he is changed
9.Epic heroes are always male
10. Along the journey, the hero always suffers.
11.Burial places are often obscure.
12. The hero is ultimately succesful.

I found "Frodo" to be written all over every one of these...except #1.
Did anyone else notice strange mythological or epic connections in LOtR? I'm a mythology person...I have to be, as I'm in Latin, and that's half of what we learn!

FrodoFriend · 02-07-2002, 12:02 AM

Well, Tolkien loved mythology, and his "Lost Tales" and much of Middle Earth is actually an artificial mythology.

I think epic heroes are also supposed to have heroic qualities such as strength, courage, faithfulness, etc. (as far as I can remember from my own Odyssey-studying days!) So here again, Frodo fits, with bravery and innocence. He's a little unorthodox as a hero, though, being more childlike and helpless than most; he needs Sam to take care of him. Also his quest leads him into more moral and mental danger than Odysseus' did; he has to deal with the Ring.

Good observation though!

Laurelyn · 02-07-2002, 07:11 AM

Very good abservation.
Hey, I also take Latin, and I'm also reading the Odyssey . . . cool!

sun-star · 02-07-2002, 10:12 AM

Frodo is of fairly obscure origin, compared to some people. He may be Bilbo's heir but he is not famous or a king or lord of any kind. Compared to Aragorn, for example, he has a very ordinary background.

bropous · 02-07-2002, 11:14 AM

When I first saw the title to the thread, I though, "well, he may be an epic hero but certainly NOT a greek epic hero!" Then I see the discussion was spurred by reading the Odyssey, so here's my take on the Greek Epic Hero:

Actually, the greek Epic Hero always had a tragic flaw, and that was hubris, an overwhelming pride which often led to his demise [Achilles, Ulysses, Oedipus, etc.] Also, in other epics, the Kalevala, Edda, Beowulf, etc., the hero usually had a flaw of character related to the swollen head which bit him in the hinder.

Frodo had no ego problems, was not some puffed-up swaggering hero, he is almost an anti-hero, lacking in the strength and boldness and battle courage, but inside a true hero, virtuous, loyal, and responsible. He embodies the TRUE heroic qualities, and Lord of the Rings is an epic, so I guess he IS an epic hero, but not in the true mould of heroism which we are used to reading.

Wayfarer · 02-07-2002, 01:14 PM

Yes.

More of an Epic Anti-Hero

Ñólendil · 02-07-2002, 05:45 PM

"Frodo had no ego problems, was not some puffed-up swaggering hero, he is almost an anti-hero, lacking in the strength and boldness and battle courage, but inside a true hero, virtuous, loyal, and responsible. "

This is all true, but Frodo was a bit proud. Observe his little speech to Gandalf in Shadow of the Past, about him being the savior of the Shire. And his words returning home: 'for I shall not be the same'. Tolkien said this was actually a subtle reemergance of the evil of the Ring and Frodo's prideful vision of himself returning as a hero.

Banazir · 02-08-2002, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ñólendil
This is all true, but Frodo was a bit proud. Observe his little speech to Gandalf in Shadow of the Past, about him being the savior of the Shire. And his words returning home: 'for I shall not be the same'. Tolkien said this was actually a subtle reemergance of the evil of the Ring and Frodo's prideful vision of himself returning as a hero.

Sure he was proud, and more than 'a bit'. That's partly why he succumbed to the Ring in the end. The pride in him screamed for the reward he deserved after suffering so much because of that Ring and for other people's sake.
I think Frodo *wasn't* a hero in the epic sense, even though almost all the characteristics of a hero apply to him. He's just too complex, as a character, to fit that label, especially because he doesn't exactly succeed in his mission (but doesn't fail, either).

bropous · 02-13-2002, 11:54 AM

Ah. I never picked up the part of Frodo apparently showing "pride" overly. One can certainly say that any prode he did have was not of the levels of the tragic flaw in Greek heroes though. Good point, Nolendil, I'll have to look for that aspect next time.

Arathorn · 02-13-2002, 02:16 PM

From how I see things happening during his, um, Frodyssy, it seems the seeds of pride were sown and grown during the journey.

Consider the following factors from Frodo's POV:
1. He is accompanied and protected by important people during the early part of the quest
2. He was handily handily given the task when he volunteered
3. He was able to travel farther and experience more dangerous adventures than his childhood hero Bilbo.
4. Being able to tame the savage, difficult to understand Smeagol, at least for a while.
5. Finally, realizing the true influence he bears at the final moment. At that time in Orodruin, he has a sense of the future of ME in his finger. With the Dark Lord realizing too late.

I can't imagine how all that could not get into someone's head; especially in a long journey.

But I must also admit that in my book, Samwise was more admirable as a hero.

Nameless · 02-14-2002, 01:53 AM

I think that there is no "main" hero in LotR. Instead the story contains many different heros. And they each display their heroism in slightly different ways.

Or to put it another way, there is no one hero who outshines everyone else. Instead there are several characters who perform heroic deeds or display heroism. This is why there is never an overwhelming consensus by readers on who is the hero of LotR!!

Now that I've got that out of my system, I would have to say that I think Frodo meets all the criteria listed by Renille. Even point 1. Because while Frodo was not an 'obscure' person to his fellow Hobbits, Hobbits (and thus Frodo) were obscure to most of the peoples of ME.

bropous · 02-14-2002, 01:20 PM

Ah, but there IS a main hero in LotR, who "outshines everybody else", and that is Frodo. Frodo destroys the One Ring. Of course he had assistance, but Frodo did accomplish the deed, and he is that most unlikely of heroes, non-mighty, non-warrior, non-royalty/nobility. The actions of those not considered worthy of the thought of the high and mighty end up overthrowning the snobs. Beautiful.

Arathorn · 02-14-2002, 01:43 PM

Like the Prof, you mean. Even after he passed away he still baffles a few outspoken crtics. His works continue to be the most popular in the 20th century.

He was given the next best honor to knighthood in the UK; an "if you can't beat 'em, make 'em join you" thing. But he passed away a year after. He would've been knighted if he lived a little longer.

He will forever remain a symbol of a non-noble beating the nobility.

markedel · 02-14-2002, 08:30 PM

The real hero is gandalf who spent 2000 years working his maian butt off so frodo could be jumped by gollum. 2000 years is a pretty long time, even for angelic folk.

02-07-2002, 12:02 AM	#2
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	Well, Tolkien loved mythology, and his "Lost Tales" and much of Middle Earth is actually an artificial mythology. I think epic heroes are also supposed to have heroic qualities such as strength, courage, faithfulness, etc. (as far as I can remember from my own Odyssey-studying days!) So here again, Frodo fits, with bravery and innocence. He's a little unorthodox as a hero, though, being more childlike and helpless than most; he needs Sam to take care of him. Also his quest leads him into more moral and mental danger than Odysseus' did; he has to deal with the Ring. Good observation though! __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

02-07-2002, 07:11 AM	#3
Laurelyn Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Valinor, right next to Telperion . . . what did you expect, Michigan? Posts: 1,315	Very good abservation. Hey, I also take Latin, and I'm also reading the Odyssey . . . cool! __________________ The Third Age of Entmoot has begun. Angel of music, guide and guardian! Grant to me your glory! The country I eat and spend the day in is by no means the country I sleep and dream in. Define patriotism. Hold the boat, you spastic monkey! ~ Elenka

02-07-2002, 10:12 AM	#4
sun-star Lady of Letters Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England Posts: 2,476	Frodo is of fairly obscure origin, compared to some people. He may be Bilbo's heir but he is not famous or a king or lord of any kind. Compared to Aragorn, for example, he has a very ordinary background. __________________ And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool.

02-07-2002, 11:14 AM	#5
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	When I first saw the title to the thread, I though, "well, he may be an epic hero but certainly NOT a greek epic hero!" Then I see the discussion was spurred by reading the Odyssey, so here's my take on the Greek Epic Hero: Actually, the greek Epic Hero always had a tragic flaw, and that was hubris, an overwhelming pride which often led to his demise [Achilles, Ulysses, Oedipus, etc.] Also, in other epics, the Kalevala, Edda, Beowulf, etc., the hero usually had a flaw of character related to the swollen head which bit him in the hinder. Frodo had no ego problems, was not some puffed-up swaggering hero, he is almost an anti-hero, lacking in the strength and boldness and battle courage, but inside a true hero, virtuous, loyal, and responsible. He embodies the TRUE heroic qualities, and Lord of the Rings is an epic, so I guess he IS an epic hero, but not in the true mould of heroism which we are used to reading. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

02-07-2002, 01:14 PM	#6
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Yes. More of an Epic Anti-Hero __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

02-06-2002, 11:57 PM	#1
Renille Elven Lady of Speed-posting Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the cheese state Posts: 988	Frodo, the epic hero? I am reading the Odyssey in English class, and today we were discussing the qualities of an epic hero. As I was taking notes on the subject, I made all these strange connections with Frodo. I had never really associated Frodo with Hercules or Odysseus, but the connection was there as I notcied the criteria of a hero (according to my teacher)- 1. Often of obscure origin. (well no...) 2.Makes a long journey 3.He is not a fool, but not invincible 4.A hero's "way" is not always clear. 5.He does have a goal 6.He always has some kind of guide 7.During the journey, the hero descends into either physical or figurative darkness. 8.When the hero emerges, he is changed 9.Epic heroes are always male 10. Along the journey, the hero always suffers. 11.Burial places are often obscure. 12. The hero is ultimately succesful. I found "Frodo" to be written all over every one of these...except #1. Did anyone else notice strange mythological or epic connections in LOtR? I'm a mythology person...I have to be, as I'm in Latin, and that's half of what we learn! __________________ Oh the thinks you can think! Think and wonder and dream...far and wide as you dare! When your thinks have run dry, in the blink of an eye, there's another world there... (from Seussical the Musical. Listen to it...watch it...really.)

02-07-2002, 05:45 PM	#7
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	"Frodo had no ego problems, was not some puffed-up swaggering hero, he is almost an anti-hero, lacking in the strength and boldness and battle courage, but inside a true hero, virtuous, loyal, and responsible. " This is all true, but Frodo was a bit proud. Observe his little speech to Gandalf in Shadow of the Past, about him being the savior of the Shire. And his words returning home: 'for I shall not be the same'. Tolkien said this was actually a subtle reemergance of the evil of the Ring and Frodo's prideful vision of himself returning as a hero. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

02-13-2002, 11:54 AM	#9
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Ah. I never picked up the part of Frodo apparently showing "pride" overly. One can certainly say that any prode he did have was not of the levels of the tragic flaw in Greek heroes though. Good point, Nolendil, I'll have to look for that aspect next time. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

02-13-2002, 02:16 PM	#10
Arathorn Bard of Mangled Songs Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila Posts: 2,679	From how I see things happening during his, um, Frodyssy, it seems the seeds of pride were sown and grown during the journey. Consider the following factors from Frodo's POV: 1. He is accompanied and protected by important people during the early part of the quest 2. He was handily handily given the task when he volunteered 3. He was able to travel farther and experience more dangerous adventures than his childhood hero Bilbo. 4. Being able to tame the savage, difficult to understand Smeagol, at least for a while. 5. Finally, realizing the true influence he bears at the final moment. At that time in Orodruin, he has a sense of the future of ME in his finger. With the Dark Lord realizing too late. I can't imagine how all that could not get into someone's head; especially in a long journey. But I must also admit that in my book, Samwise was more admirable as a hero. __________________ Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert *Accio, Ash Nazg!* Elennuru s?la lúmenn' omentielvo* (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures...

02-14-2002, 01:53 AM	#11
Nameless Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 68	I think that there is no "main" hero in LotR. Instead the story contains many different heros. And they each display their heroism in slightly different ways. Or to put it another way, there is no one hero who outshines everyone else. Instead there are several characters who perform heroic deeds or display heroism. This is why there is never an overwhelming consensus by readers on who is the hero of LotR!! Now that I've got that out of my system, I would have to say that I think Frodo meets all the criteria listed by Renille. Even point 1. Because while Frodo was not an 'obscure' person to his fellow Hobbits, Hobbits (and thus Frodo) were obscure to most of the peoples of ME. __________________ Nameless and Faceless, but not Voiceless - - - Do you hear me?

02-14-2002, 01:20 PM	#12
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Ah, but there IS a main hero in LotR, who "outshines everybody else", and that is Frodo. Frodo destroys the One Ring. Of course he had assistance, but Frodo did accomplish the deed, and he is that most unlikely of heroes, non-mighty, non-warrior, non-royalty/nobility. The actions of those not considered worthy of the thought of the high and mighty end up overthrowning the snobs. Beautiful. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

02-14-2002, 01:43 PM	#13
Arathorn Bard of Mangled Songs Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila Posts: 2,679	bropous Like the Prof, you mean. Even after he passed away he still baffles a few outspoken crtics. His works continue to be the most popular in the 20th century. He was given the next best honor to knighthood in the UK; an "if you can't beat 'em, make 'em join you" thing. But he passed away a year after. He would've been knighted if he lived a little longer. He will forever remain a symbol of a non-noble beating the nobility. __________________ Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert *Accio, Ash Nazg!* Elennuru s?la lúmenn' omentielvo* (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures...

02-14-2002, 08:30 PM	#14
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	The real hero is gandalf who spent 2000 years working his maian butt off so frodo could be jumped by gollum. 2000 years is a pretty long time, even for angelic folk. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

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