In defense of the Ringwraith or "Where is the beef?"(loo-ong posting!) - Page 2

Telcontar_Dunedain · 10-08-2005, 06:35 AM

Okay thanks Gor. I don't think any of the Nazgûl apart from the Witch-King were at the Pelennor. At the end of TTT I think it was Shagrat who said 'The High Nazgûl has gone to War' making no mention of the others going. Also one of the Nazgûl was put in charge of Cirith Ungol so I'm guessing that they weren't at the Pelennor.

Gordis · 10-08-2005, 11:49 AM

Oh, no, there were at least 6-7, I believe, flying overhead.

Quote:

The Nazgûl came again, and as their Dark Lord now grew and put forth his strength, so their voices, which uttered only his will and his malice, were filled with evil and horror. Ever they circled above the City, like vultures that expect their fill of doomed men’s flesh. Out of sight and shot they flew, and yet were ever present, and their deadly voices rent the air.

That was on the 14.03 I believe they were still there during the night.
As for the 15.03, The Lord of Morgul was slain shortly after sunrise.

There was a line in LOTR draft, not erased, but simply missed, when it was copied on a typewriter. "After the WK was brought down, the nazgul flew back to Mordor in fear and dismay". Sorry, I can't check the quote, I rely only on memory.

And then Frodo and Sam, saw one nazgul just after they escapd Cirith Ungol tower, in the early hours of 15.03. Then at the first light, they felt another flying high overhead:

Quote:

They started off again. They had not gone far when Frodo paused. ‘There’s a Black Rider over us,’ he said. ‘I can feel it. We had better keep still for a while.’

And then they saw the third, bearing news of the Witch-King's fall:

Quote:

As Frodo and Sam stood and gazed, the rim of light spread all along the line of the Ephel Dúath, and then they saw a shape, moving at a great speed out of the West, at first only a black speck against the glimmering strip above the mountain-tops, but growing, until it plunged like a bolt into the dark canopy and passed high above them. As it went it sent out a long shrill cry, the voice of a Nazgûl; but this cry no longer held any terror for them: it was a cry of woe and dismay, ill tidings for the Dark Tower. The Lord of the Ring-wraiths had met his doom.

So, the nazgul were used to frighten the enemies, when flying overhead and screeching, as well as for bearing news to Sauron and his orders back.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 10-09-2005, 04:50 PM

Okay, thanks for the info Gor. Where did you find out about the missed line.

Gordis · 10-09-2005, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Okay, thanks for the info Gor. Where did you find out about the missed line.

In HOME of course. It must be in "The War of the Ring", I believe, but I have no books with me to check.

The Witch-King of Angmar · 10-09-2005, 07:35 PM

In the movies they all attack Minas Tirith, i didn't like that, it wasn't realistic.

Gordis · 05-20-2006, 04:15 PM

BUMP - needed for reference

CAB · 05-21-2006, 10:55 AM

Thank you for bumping this thread Gordis. Although I think that there are some problems with Olmer’s theory, it is very interesting and well thought out. After rereading this thread, I began to wonder about something. Could Gildor’s actions/inactions be explained by his having recognized the Nazgul’s “show” for what it really was (at least according to this theory)? I had always considered his not helping Frodo something of a “crime of apathy”. However, if he knew that the Nazgul wouldn’t really attempt to capture Frodo, maybe he could be excused. Also, if he believed that Gandalf was purposely keeping his distance (I don’t think Gildor could have known about Gandalf’s capture by Saruman) maybe he thought that he should also.

Gordis · 05-21-2006, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAB

Thank you for bumping this thread Gordis. Although I think that there are some problems with Olmer’s theory, it is very interesting and well thought out.

I think the only problem is that he gives two possible explanations to the strange nazgul behaviour, one of wich I can't buy at all. I will never believe they acted on Sauron's orders, driving the Ring to Rivendell. Neither do I agree with his AU interpretation of the One Ring.

Quote:

After rereading this thread, I began to wonder about something. Could Gildor’s actions/inactions be explained by his having recognized the Nazgul’s “show” for what it really was (at least according to this theory)? I had always considered his not helping Frodo something of a “crime of apathy”. However, if he knew that the Nazgul wouldn’t really attempt to capture Frodo, maybe he could be excused. Also, if he believed that Gandalf was purposely keeping his distance (I don’t think Gildor could have known about Gandalf’s capture by Saruman) maybe he thought that he should also.

Very interesting. I was also shocked by Gildor's behaviour even the first time I read LoTR. But I kept thinking that he gave no help because he was such a *** like most Elves

.

But maybe you are right and there is more to it.

CAB · 05-21-2006, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordis

Neither do I agree with his AU interpretation of the One Ring.

Umm...I hate to admit this, but I don't know what an AU interpretation is.

Gordis · 05-21-2006, 12:45 PM

AU stands for 'Alternative Universe" and means a serious deviation from Tolkien Canon.

Olmer, if I understand rightly (sorry if I don't, Olmer

), thinks that the One Ring is just a device to suck power from its current possessor and transmit it to Sauron. So Sauron never meant to keep it himself, instead he was interested to give it to the most powerful being possible: to Galadriel, Elrond or Gandalf, or even to the Barlog - to suck them dry of their power.
Of course it is very uncanonic. I never agreed with it, it just changes too much in the Tolkien world.

CAB · 05-21-2006, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordis

AU stands for 'Alternative Universe" and means a serious deviation from Tolkien Canon.

I see. Thank you for the explanation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordis

Olmer, if I understand rightly (sorry if I don't, Olmer

), thinks that the One Ring is just a device to suck power from its current possessor and transmit it to Sauron. So Sauron never meant to keep it himself, instead he was interested to give it to the most powerful being possible: to Galadriel, Elrond or Gandalf, or even to the Barlog - to suck them dry of their power.
Of course it is very uncanonic. I never agreed with it, it just changes too much in the Tolkien world.

I have seen Olmer’s opinion, on this thread and others, that Sauron wanted the Ring to be claimed by his powerful opponents. I thought the reason why was so they would be corrupted or made his servants or allies. I guess this makes more sense, in a way. Without having seen the whole argument, I would have to disagree with this theory. But if it is coming from Olmer, then I am sure that there is plenty of evidence supporting it.

Gwaimir Windgem · 05-22-2006, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordis

AU stands for 'Alternative Universe" and means a serious deviation from Tolkien Canon.

No it doesn't, it stands for "Anglican Use". Gosh, people!

TreebeardQuickbeam · 06-06-2006, 04:42 PM

Wouldn't it make sense for Sauron to search for the ring himself instead of sending any of his servants?

Gordis · 06-06-2006, 04:50 PM

Welcome to the Moot!

Quote:

Wouldn't it make sense for Sauron to search for the ring himself instead of sending any of his servants?

Do you think he would have done better than his nazgul?

A really smart thing to do would be to send some black Numenoreans disguised as rangers AND a couple nazgul to keep them in line.

10-08-2005, 06:35 AM	#21
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Okay thanks Gor. I don't think any of the Nazgûl apart from the Witch-King were at the Pelennor. At the end of TTT I think it was Shagrat who said 'The High Nazgûl has gone to War' making no mention of the others going. Also one of the Nazgûl was put in charge of Cirith Ungol so I'm guessing that they weren't at the Pelennor. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

10-09-2005, 04:50 PM	#23
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Okay, thanks for the info Gor. Where did you find out about the missed line. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

10-09-2005, 07:35 PM	#25
The Witch-King of Angmar Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 143	In the movies they all attack Minas Tirith, i didn't like that, it wasn't realistic. __________________ *"Do not come between the Nazgûl and his prey"* I'm an Xbox Guy! Xbox Guys

06-06-2006, 04:42 PM	#33
TreebeardQuickbeam Sapling Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 8	Why? Wouldn't it make sense for Sauron to search for the ring himself instead of sending any of his servants?

05-20-2006, 04:15 PM	#26
Gordis Lady of the Ulairi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 2,783	BUMP - needed for reference

05-21-2006, 10:55 AM	#27
CAB Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 306	Thank you for bumping this thread Gordis. Although I think that there are some problems with Olmer’s theory, it is very interesting and well thought out. After rereading this thread, I began to wonder about something. Could Gildor’s actions/inactions be explained by his having recognized the Nazgul’s “show” for what it really was (at least according to this theory)? I had always considered his not helping Frodo something of a “crime of apathy”. However, if he knew that the Nazgul wouldn’t really attempt to capture Frodo, maybe he could be excused. Also, if he believed that Gandalf was purposely keeping his distance (I don’t think Gildor could have known about Gandalf’s capture by Saruman) maybe he thought that he should also.

05-21-2006, 12:45 PM	#30
Gordis Lady of the Ulairi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 2,783	AU stands for 'Alternative Universe" and means a serious deviation from Tolkien Canon. Olmer, if I understand rightly (sorry if I don't, Olmer ), thinks that the One Ring is just a device to suck power from its current possessor and transmit it to Sauron. So Sauron never meant to keep it himself, instead he was interested to give it to the most powerful being possible: to Galadriel, Elrond or Gandalf, or even to the Barlog - to suck them dry of their power. Of course it is very uncanonic. I never agreed with it, it just changes too much in the Tolkien world.