Breaking the Rules?

durinsbane2244 · 06-02-2006, 06:29 PM

the istari were sent disguised as old men, and were not to openly confront Sauron, or use their true power. on that note, three words: Gandalf the White. he did nothing BUT openly confront Sauron, and i'm pretty sure the beams of light he shot [he did that in the books too] were power, no?

Jon S. · 06-02-2006, 06:57 PM

And I'll raise you this:

How is it possible that every single living creature in Middle Earth didn't guess Gandalf's and Sauron's identities? The don't (or barely) age, live indefinitely, and have unique, non-human/elven powers. What other choices were there for them to be than Maia?

durinsbane2244 · 06-02-2006, 07:02 PM

few in middle-earth probably remembered the existence of the maia, except the scattered remaining Faithful, who worshipped "god", the elves, who knew the truth and aided the istari.

Olmer · 06-02-2006, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by durinsbane2244

the istari were sent disguised as old men, and were not to openly confront Sauron, or use their true power. on that note, three words: Gandalf the White. he did nothing BUT openly confront Sauron, and i'm pretty sure the beams of light he shot [he did that in the books too] were power, no?

Gandalf the Gray was sent by Valar under disguise and with limited abilities to use his power. When he died, he lost his previous disguise and with it the prohibitions, which had been instilled on this form.
Being reincarnated by the Higher Power (Eru), he has been sent not like Gandalf-the Istari, but as Olorin - the Maia with all his full power at his disposal.

durinsbane2244 · 06-02-2006, 11:25 PM

ooooh...yes, that makes sense. ah, and he says, "Gandalf...yes...that was my name once..." alright...good point, Olmer!

Gordis · 06-03-2006, 01:59 AM

I fully agree with Olmer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon S.

And I'll raise you this:

How is it possible that every single living creature in Middle Earth didn't guess Gandalf's and Sauron's identities? The don't (or barely) age, live indefinitely, and have unique, non-human/elven powers. What other choices were there for them to be than Maia?

Gandalf was nicknamed so because people supposed he was an Elf (GondAlfr = Elf with a wand).

In the Third Age Sauron was not that much around and mixing with people.

Even the Istari and the Wise first first thought him to be a nazgul. The revelation that he was NOT a nazgul hit them after TA 2000 - probably because at the Siege of Minas Ithil all the Nine had been counted, and the Tenth at Dol Guldur had to be something else.

As for the Second Age, it is noteworthy that Annatar didn't even try to pose as an Elf, which could have made his task a lot easier, he had to admit he was a Maia - and that rose some suspicions. Probably, at close quarters, when dealing with Calaquendi elves (and Celebrimbor was one), a Maia can't disguise his nature.

Landroval · 06-03-2006, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by durinsbane2244

few in middle-earth probably remembered the existence of the maia, except the scattered remaining Faithful, who worshipped "god", the elves, who knew the truth and aided the istari.

I fully agree with durinsbane (less the worshipping part

).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olmer

When he died, he lost his previous disguise and with it the prohibitions, which had been instilled on this form.
Being reincarnated by the Higher Power (Eru), he has been sent not like Gandalf-the Istari, but as Olorin - the Maia with all his full power at his disposal.

He didn't lose his "disguise" (he still has "a similar personality and idiosincrasy)", there still are some prohibitions and he still is an embodied being:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letter #156

He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel' - no more violently than the release of St Peter from prison
...
Gandalf may be enhanced in power (that is, under the forms of this fable, in sanctity), but if still embodied he must still suffer care and anxiety, and the needs of flesh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordis

As for the Second Age, it is noteworthy that Annatar didn't even try to pose as an Elf, which could have made his task a lot easier, he had to admit he was a Maia - and that rose some suspicions.

I am not aware he ever tried posing as an elf.

Gordis · 06-03-2006, 06:44 AM

Another Elf among the Mirdain would raise little suspicions - after all, there were some Noldor scattered after the disasters of the First Age who could eventually make their way to Ost-in-Edhil. Probably Sauron was even able to make himself look as a person they used to know, but believed dead.
But he didn't do it - he said he was Maia of Aule - Aulendil.

At this time, before the Downfall, Sauron was still a shape-shifter, presumably. The one who can look as a wolf or a bat, would have no problems to look as an Elf - provided his opponents had no access into the Spirit World.

06-02-2006, 07:02 PM	#3
durinsbane2244 Dreamweaver Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go... Posts: 3,560	few in middle-earth probably remembered the existence of the maia, except the scattered remaining Faithful, who worshipped "god", the elves, who knew the truth and aided the istari. __________________ Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih...

06-02-2006, 11:25 PM	#5
durinsbane2244 Dreamweaver Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go... Posts: 3,560	ooooh...yes, that makes sense. ah, and he says, "Gandalf...yes...that was my name once..." alright...good point, Olmer! __________________ Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih...

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06-02-2006, 06:29 PM	#1
durinsbane2244 Dreamweaver Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go... Posts: 3,560	Breaking the Rules? the istari were sent disguised as old men, and were not to openly confront Sauron, or use their true power. on that note, three words: Gandalf the White. he did nothing BUT openly confront Sauron, and i'm pretty sure the beams of light he shot [he did that in the books too] were power, no? __________________ Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih...

06-02-2006, 06:57 PM	#2
Jon S. Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 455	And I'll raise you this: How is it possible that every single living creature in Middle Earth didn't guess Gandalf's and Sauron's identities? The don't (or barely) age, live indefinitely, and have unique, non-human/elven powers. What other choices were there for them to be than Maia?

06-03-2006, 06:44 AM	#8
Gordis Lady of the Ulairi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 2,783	Another Elf among the Mirdain would raise little suspicions - after all, there were some Noldor scattered after the disasters of the First Age who could eventually make their way to Ost-in-Edhil. Probably Sauron was even able to make himself look as a person they used to know, but believed dead. But he didn't do it - he said he was Maia of Aule - Aulendil. At this time, before the Downfall, Sauron was still a shape-shifter, presumably. The one who can look as a wolf or a bat, would have no problems to look as an Elf - provided his opponents had no access into the Spirit World.