Futility

UnStashable · 01-03-2002, 01:40 AM

Rereading the sections about the 5th battle i was curious, if the Noldor and thier allies had been able to storm Angband in the 5th battle or whenver would they have been able to do anything permanent to morgoth himself? Would it have been like the war of the last alliance (everytime the "kill" him he forms a new body). I was just wondering if they could ever hope to really defeat him.

Lord_Ov_The_Thunder · 01-03-2002, 06:38 AM

It is said in the sil, that the onslaught of the was so great that they broke the doors of Angband and slew the servants of Morgoth on the very steps of his halls.. but they were driven back and been slain. .. then Fingon blew his trumpets and began the battle.... then Maedhros came and the victory was so near that Glaurung fled from the battle and they could have conquered Angband but Morgoth they can't, for he basically made of Light like the other Valar.. his body can be destroyed but he can take another body if he wills and can come more powerful and stronger, and the valar can't be slain or destroyed, so what the valar did afterwards was the right thing to banished from the world and never to come back again!!!!!!

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-03-2002, 11:19 AM

There was never any hope for Elves or Men to defeat Morgoth himself. Feanor even realized this at his death, but he still held his sons to their oath inspite of that.

afro-elf · 01-03-2002, 12:37 PM

That is one reason why I really hate that !@#$%^&*

it would have been interesting if they had crushed angband and ONLY Melkor survived

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-03-2002, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
That is one reason why I really hate that !@#$%^&*

it would have been interesting if they had crushed angband and ONLY Melkor survived

That could have been a possablity in the Nirnaeth as Tolkien said: The Elves might have won that day, had all their allies proved loyal to them. There was a great deal of treachery among Men. I think that it was after this battle, that Elves and Men really became sundered.

bropous · 01-03-2002, 07:30 PM

Hmmm. Just curious: If Melkor/Morgoth was only made of light, like the Valar, as set forth in a prior post, how could he have ever been chained?

Ñólendil · 01-03-2002, 08:25 PM

Who said they're only made of light?

afro-elf · 01-03-2002, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Inoldonil : who said they're only made of light

And the calprit is ....Lord_Ov_The_Thunder

Ñólendil · 01-04-2002, 07:16 PM

Well, it doesn't make much sense to me. In The Road Goes Ever On it is said that all the Valar were radiant, it seemed that some Light shone through their bodies, but I don't think their bodies were of light. Their bodies were by no means permanent (unless you do what Melkor did and disemminate yourself throughout the Earth so you can't change shape again), they were only clothes, the raiment that veils their inner spirit. Not even their spirits are of light, as when they shed their raiment you can't see them. They could also take on 'inhuman' forums: trees, waves, mountains, things of that sort. So I don't see how they're made of light.

Maybe I've misunderstood Thunder.

Wayfarer · 01-05-2002, 06:37 PM

In actuality, I believe that the ainur were made of pure spirit. In some, it manifested as light, in melkor and sauron, an aura of shadow and fear. It's much like the way one person might wear a white tuxedo while another wears blue jeans and an obscene t-shirt. It has to do with personality.

bropous · 01-13-2002, 09:45 PM

Sorry, O Friend from the Land of the Pyramids, there is nothing in the Silamrillion, nor in Tolkien's other writings which I have read which indicated that the Valar were "made of light."

As for futility, Morgoth may have been able to be sorely wounded, and maybe even his coporeal form "killed", but he was never going to be completely "unmade" by the efforts of the Elves. Only Iluvatar himself ended up being able to remove him from the World.

Manwe, Aule and Ulmo tag-teaming Morgoth would not have been able to totally destroy Morgoth, for he was "strongest of the Valar". They were able to chain him, even defeat him at times, but as for total destruction, had they vanquished his form, his spirit would have continued, as did Sauron after HIS corporeal form was destroyed by Isildur.

markedel · 01-26-2002, 08:16 PM

And to make life more confusing in HoME Tolkien writes how Melkor's power was diffused into Arda so he was much weaker by the end of the First Age then originally. But the first age is so murky it's impossible to know what Tolkien intended by his death.

Curufinwe · 02-08-2002, 05:07 PM

I think the assumption that Melkor could easily take another form if the physical form he had taken (essentially the Morgoth) had been slain may be misguided. In one essay in Morgoth's ring Tolkein explicitly states that Melkor was terrified of being slain in his present form, and thus only extremely rarely left Angband. This is in contrast to Sauron who clearly didn't mind seeing the sites (Ost-in-edhil, Tol-Sirion, Numenore, he even went to Lindon). Why might this be? As Tolkein explains, Melkor's power was greatly diffused in the substance of Arda, thus Arda marred, Sauron's power remained in himself with the exception of that part of his nascent strength which flowed into the one ring. Tolkein suggested therefore, that while Melkor could not be slain or ended, the time of his return would be millenia or longer. This is demonstrated by the fact that the Valar were able to expel Melkor from the kingdom of Arda, but he will return after recovering his strength for the last battle, as told in the second doom of Mandos (mentioned in UT).

01-03-2002, 01:40 AM	#1
UnStashable Enting Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 52	Futility Rereading the sections about the 5th battle i was curious, if the Noldor and thier allies had been able to storm Angband in the 5th battle or whenver would they have been able to do anything permanent to morgoth himself? Would it have been like the war of the last alliance (everytime the "kill" him he forms a new body). I was just wondering if they could ever hope to really defeat him. __________________ This elevator only goes to the basement, and sombody made an awful mess down there

01-03-2002, 06:38 AM	#2
Lord_Ov_The_Thunder Sapling Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Egypt Posts: 14	Actually No!!! It is said in the sil, that the onslaught of the was so great that they broke the doors of Angband and slew the servants of Morgoth on the very steps of his halls.. but they were driven back and been slain. .. then Fingon blew his trumpets and began the battle.... then Maedhros came and the victory was so near that Glaurung fled from the battle and they could have conquered Angband but Morgoth they can't, for he basically made of Light like the other Valar.. his body can be destroyed but he can take another body if he wills and can come more powerful and stronger, and the valar can't be slain or destroyed, so what the valar did afterwards was the right thing to banished from the world and never to come back again!!!!!! __________________ Lord Of the waters spoke, In the silence words of wisdom. I've seen the end of all, Be aware the storm gets closer.

01-03-2002, 12:37 PM	#4
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	That is one reason why I really hate that !@#$%^&* it would have been interesting if they had crushed angband and ONLY Melkor survived __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

01-03-2002, 07:30 PM	#6
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Hmmm. Just curious: If Melkor/Morgoth was only made of light, like the Valar, as set forth in a prior post, how could he have ever been chained? __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-03-2002, 08:25 PM	#7
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Who said they're only made of light? __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-03-2002, 11:19 AM	#3
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	There was never any hope for Elves or Men to defeat Morgoth himself. Feanor even realized this at his death, but he still held his sons to their oath inspite of that.

01-04-2002, 07:16 PM	#9
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Well, it doesn't make much sense to me. In The Road Goes Ever On it is said that all the Valar were radiant, it seemed that some Light shone through their bodies, but I don't think their bodies were of light. Their bodies were by no means permanent (unless you do what Melkor did and disemminate yourself throughout the Earth so you can't change shape again), they were only clothes, the raiment that veils their inner spirit. Not even their spirits are of light, as when they shed their raiment you can't see them. They could also take on 'inhuman' forums: trees, waves, mountains, things of that sort. So I don't see how they're made of light. Maybe I've misunderstood Thunder. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-05-2002, 06:37 PM	#10
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	In actuality, I believe that the ainur were made of pure spirit. In some, it manifested as light, in melkor and sauron, an aura of shadow and fear. It's much like the way one person might wear a white tuxedo while another wears blue jeans and an obscene t-shirt. It has to do with personality. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-13-2002, 09:45 PM	#11
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Sorry, O Friend from the Land of the Pyramids, there is nothing in the Silamrillion, nor in Tolkien's other writings which I have read which indicated that the Valar were "made of light." As for futility, Morgoth may have been able to be sorely wounded, and maybe even his coporeal form "killed", but he was never going to be completely "unmade" by the efforts of the Elves. Only Iluvatar himself ended up being able to remove him from the World. Manwe, Aule and Ulmo tag-teaming Morgoth would not have been able to totally destroy Morgoth, for he was "strongest of the Valar". They were able to chain him, even defeat him at times, but as for total destruction, had they vanquished his form, his spirit would have continued, as did Sauron after HIS corporeal form was destroyed by Isildur. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-26-2002, 08:16 PM	#12
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	And to make life more confusing in HoME Tolkien writes how Melkor's power was diffused into Arda so he was much weaker by the end of the First Age then originally. But the first age is so murky it's impossible to know what Tolkien intended by his death. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

02-08-2002, 05:07 PM	#13
Curufinwe Enting Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: New England Posts: 59	I think the assumption that Melkor could easily take another form if the physical form he had taken (essentially the Morgoth) had been slain may be misguided. In one essay in Morgoth's ring Tolkein explicitly states that Melkor was terrified of being slain in his present form, and thus only extremely rarely left Angband. This is in contrast to Sauron who clearly didn't mind seeing the sites (Ost-in-edhil, Tol-Sirion, Numenore, he even went to Lindon). Why might this be? As Tolkein explains, Melkor's power was greatly diffused in the substance of Arda, thus Arda marred, Sauron's power remained in himself with the exception of that part of his nascent strength which flowed into the one ring. Tolkein suggested therefore, that while Melkor could not be slain or ended, the time of his return would be millenia or longer. This is demonstrated by the fact that the Valar were able to expel Melkor from the kingdom of Arda, but he will return after recovering his strength for the last battle, as told in the second doom of Mandos (mentioned in UT). Last edited by Curufinwe : 02-08-2002 at 05:09 PM.

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