The Heirlooms of Arnor

[Valandil]

As Gordis and I have previously discussed via email, I think that Angmar attacked Fornost late in the year 1974 - early in the 1974-75 winter. It seems to contradict JRRT's direct statement about them attacking before a particular winter (which seems to be 73-74) had passed - but it works much better with Arvedui's attempted rescue from Forochel by Cirdan's ship, after being aided by the Lossoth (which appears to be clearly in 1975). There's no reason Arvedui would have waited up there through a summer and into the following winter, after fleeing Fornost.

I think the inconsistences stem from the apparent fact that JRRT never really got back to this story to firm it all up.

I think the forces of Angmar were content to mostly hang out in Fornost in the rest of the winter of 74-75. I bet they sent out raids to terrorize the surrounding areas (including Bree and the Shire), but I doubt they did any other full-scale assaults. They were probably waiting for Spring of 1975 - but the forces of Gondor got to them first.

I believe my fanfic account is a reasonable enough interpretation of what happened. There are enough inconsistencies already - and enough loose threads, that it's mostly plausible. However - there could easily be thousands of other interpretations. Gordis certainly spotted some flaws in my account though - so I may re-think it. I like to hope it's dramatic enough. (if anyone is interested - it's in Letter #11 of "Letters of Firiel" - which you can find from the link in my sig)

There could have been other heirlooms of Arnor. One notable one I think of: the Sword of Isildur was apparently recovered in the search for him (see "The Disaster of the Gladden" in UT). I would think this would be highly treasured - and maybe was held nearly as mighty as Narsil - and yet was unbroken. I suspect it could easily have been lost at the deaths of any of the Kings slain between Valandil and Arvedui (there were three in between who were slain) - or it could have gone into the drink with Arvedui. It might have even passed into Cardolan or Rhudaur at the Division of Arnor (esp if one of the other sons of Earendur had it in his keeping at the time - possession probably being nine-tenths of the law even then).

"Scepter of ... Annuminas" - interesting. Sort of goes with my theory that the Northern Dunedain revered Annuminas. I think the years of Arnor would definitely have been viewed as "The Glory Days" at the time of Arthedain. Witness their attempts to reclaim the other portions of Arnor when the line of Isildur died out in those kingdoms.

[Gordis]

Val, great that you have re-appeared!

I agree with all your points but this one:

Originally Posted by Valandil

I think the forces of Angmar were content to mostly hang out in Fornost in the rest of the winter of 74-75. I bet they sent out raids to terrorize the surrounding areas (including Bree and the Shire), but I doubt they did any other full-scale assaults. They were probably waiting for Spring of 1975 - but the forces of Gondor got to them first.

I don't think the Forces of Gondor came to Arnor in spring 1975. More likely it was in autumn of this year.
Apparently, the Gondoreans started to prepare the fleet in earnest only since they heard of the fall of Arnor, not when Arvedui first asked them to do that in 1973. I think Earnur didn't mind to see the pretender to his throne dead: he did nothing to prevent it . But to have the Witch-King ruling Arnor was not safe for Gondor, so Earnil decided to strike before the Witch-King could establish a strong state in place of the ailing kingdom of Athedain.

And the Witch King was not a raider in Arthedain, he came to stay:

(The Witch-king of Angmar) was now dwelling, it is said, in Fornost, which he had filled with evil folk, usurping the house and rule of the kings. - LOTR App.A.

I believe he was clever enough not to destroy his future kingdom needlessly. So, "raiding and terrorizing" the surrounding areas was unlikely.

There is no mention of the Shire being destroyed:

The Shire-folk survived, though war swept over them and most of them fled into hiding

So it seems that at least some troops marched through the Shire. Nobody knows though, were they Angmarians or Gondorians - probably the hobbits never bothered to ask before running away and hiding.

I am sure that the Witch-King would have tried to introduce better order and proper management into Arnor. Because the management under the descendants of Isildur was pretty poor :

For it was in the one thousand six hundred and first year of the Third Age that the Fallohide brothers, Marcho and Blanco, set out from Bree; and having obtained permission from the high king at Fornost (Argeleb II), they crossed the brown river Baranduin with a great following of Hobbits. They passed over the Bridge of Stonebows, that had been built in the days of the power of the North Kingdom, and they took all the land beyond to dwell in, between the river and the Far Downs. All that was demanded of them was that they should keep the Great Bridge in repair, and all other bridges and roads, speed the king's messengers, and acknowledge his lordship. -LOTR Prologue

Now it is apparent that the noble King Argeleb has not even asked them to pay TAXES ! No wonder Arnor was falling to pieces!

It is wrong, IMHO to describe the Witch-King and Sauron's intentions as purely destructive:

In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible. He had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the (economic) well-being of other inhabitants of the Earth. But he went further than human tyrants in pride and the lust for domination, being in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit. L# 183 Notes on W. H. Auden's review of The Return of the King

I await your answer, O High King!

[Snowdog]

Well, fan-fic accounts aside (I have my own ), personal opinions on this era based on the published fragments are all we have. I am of the opinion that the Witch King's purpose was to destroy the Dúnedain and any and all symbolism of their presence. I think they swept west in pursuit of the Dúnedain as fast and as far as they could. Arvedui and his men hid in the mointains while the forces of Angmar spent their strength in the winter and outran their supply lines. The King then came to the camp of the Lossoth in harsh winter weather, though this most likely covered their movement from any lingering enemies, and the spring brought the armada of Gondor and the offensive that cleared Eriador of the Angmarian armies. I always believed that the great offensive of Angmar came in the late fall/early winter of 1974 after the summer of 1974 passed.

Edit: I forgot to Answer your question. it was the past post of the 1st page and I missed it.

It was called "of Annuminas" but not "of Fornost" Why?

Tradition. Elendil made the city of Annúminas his seat of government, and with the new realm came new traditions. Numenor had been destroyed, but they had survived and they had the Sceptre of Andunie which Elendiil decided to use as a symbol of the high kingship, which became Arnorian tradition. The choice of moving the seat of power to Fornost was more a defensive one with the declining population able to be more easily defended there.

[Gordis]

Thanks for the reply, Snowdog.

Arvedui and his men hid in the mointains while the forces of Angmar spent their strength in the winter and outran their supply lines.

That seems strange to me. The Angmarians were not spending their strength in winter, but enjoyed the shelter of Fornost.
Do you really think they depended on their supply lines all the way from Angmar? Wasn't there any food etc. nearer?- in Bree, in the Shire, in the country surrounding Fornost? I think they spent the winter quite well.

[Snowdog]

Ok, if the army of Angmar spent the winter lounging around in Fornost, then why did Arvedui have to hide out in the dwarf caves and seek help from the Lossoth? They could have simply rode south and over to the Grey Havens. So I have a hard time seeing that as a scenario.

Also, moving armies require provision, be they elves, orcs, or men. Looting would have helped, but would not be able on its own to sustain an army, so yes I think they were dependent on their supply lines.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

Ok, if the army of Angmar spent the winter lounging around in Fornost, then why did Arvedui have to hide out in the dwarf caves and seek help from the Lossoth? They could have simply rode south and over to the Grey Havens. So I have a hard time seeing that as a scenario.

The Witch-King probably had parties searching for Arvedui so it wouldn't have been that easy. It also states that Arvedui's horse had died. It doesn't give a specific date, but my guess would be just before Arvedui was forced into the dwarf caves, because otheriwse he would probably have just ridden straight for Lindon.
Another question which is annoying me is whether or not Glorfindel and the army he bought from Imladris were fighting just before they left for Fornost. I may be wrong but I doubt Cirdan would have sent his forces and the Gondoreans all the way to Imladris and then to Fornost, for all they knew Imladris could have been taken as it was under seige at some point during the War.

[Valandil]

I agree with TD about search parties. They wouldn't feel the need to have the whole army out in force. Just some unlucky devils out giving chase.

And... it was Angmar's forces that drove them to the abandoned Dwarf mines, but it was hunger that drove them from the mines to the Lossoth.

[Gordis]

I think Angmar forces, being northerners, weathered the winter pretty well. Otherwise, the WK wouldn't have the cheek to come and meet Gondoreans in the open field.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It may have been self confidence more than anything else. The WK's power was the strongest in the winter and Earnur would have been no match for him. I think if he had clear news of Glorfindels troops approaching he may have thought twice about it, but he may have been under the impression that Imladris was still under siege.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

It may have been self confidence more than anything else. The WK's power was the strongest in the winter and Earnur would have been no match for him. I think if he had clear news of Glorfindels troops approaching he may have thought twice about it, but he may have been under the impression that Imladris was still under siege.

So you think the battle of Fornost was in winter?
Val believes it was in spring, Snowdog also, I said autumn, and you say winter!
Summer, anyone?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Summer I think is definitly out of the question. Remember what the Chief of Lossoth said.

Originally Posted by Chief of Lossoth

Do not mount on this sea-monster! If they have them, let the seamen bring us food and other things that we need, and you may stay here til the Witch King goes home. But now his breath is deadly, and his cold arm is long.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Summer I think is definitly out of the question. Remember what the Chief of Lossoth said.

TD, this quote refers not to the Battle of Fornost, but to the drowning of Arvedui in Forochel. This event is dated: March 1975.

The battle of Fornost was after that, but when? Still in spring, in summer or in autumn?
By the way, the actual meeting of Glorfindel-Earnur and the WK was not near Fornost, but far to the North-East, because the WK was retreating to Carn-Dum. Yet there is no mention of snow. (And this far North the snow probably lies from mid October till mid-May)