What actually happened when the WC drove Sauron from Dol Guldur?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But Saruman was leader of the Council, and had looked into the arts of Sauron, the most out of any in ME. And at this point the Council still trusted him. IMO there was some sense of wisdom in not wantin to attack DG. Sauron would be stronger in Mordor than he was in DG, why force him to move to where he was stronger?

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by gordis

The decision of the Counsil was voted. It brings us again to the composition of the WC. If Gandalf + Erlond + Galadriel were for the attack, who then was against? Saruman + Rhadagast+ ???(you need at least 2 more)

One more, as in a tie, Saruman would have casting vote.
Cirdan perhaps? convinced by the expertise and wisdom of Saruman?

[Jon S.]

FWIW, found the following in a post on The Barrows-Down Discussion Forum:

... it is in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", which I'd like to see consolidated with LoTR appendices, UTs and what else into as full a tale of "Middle-Earth" in the Second & Third Age as possible (aside from T&BA/LoTR).

ORPTA was specifically written by JRRT for publication with "Quenta Silmarillion" and I believe it was essentially finished during his lifetime, and thus may be considered to be true Canon, as opposed to the "Quenta Silmarillion" as diputably edited by CRT for The Silmarillion for which I'm working now with the 2nd Edition, as opposed to my treasured 1st American Printing.

On page 300-2, which I'll assume here to be canon, it gives a good telling of the White Council, but I see no mention of "five" having specifically undertaken the assault on Dol Guldor, and I doubt that there is such a reference.

This telling does confirm, as I thought, that Cirdan was a Charter Member of the White Council, along with Elrond and Galadriel. Actually, ORPTA refers to the White Council as primarily an Eldarin enterprise. (In fact, some of its members had been part of the Second Age's first such council)

Besides the three already noted, other Elven Lords were definitely counted amoung it members, who would undoubtedly include at least Celeborn, Glorfindel and Erestor. (I would not, however, list Thranduil, Gildor, Elrohir, Elladen, Arwen, or Haldir among even potential White Councillors, even if the first two were at times privy to the counsels of the Wise)

Saruman and Gandalf are then described as joining the council too, although certainly as key members, seeing as they were the two candidates for the Chair.

Radagast's absence in that text is certainly significant, as his name appears in close context just above. I take this to imply, with little uncertainty, that Gandalf and Saruman were the only Istari, who were also real members of the White Council.

As for the assault, Radagast might still have been called on, geography being what it was, even if he was no more than a nominal part of the White Council.

The primary players from the White Council, who were present at the scene, were Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel, Celeborn (with Galadhrim forces), and possibly Glorfindel leading a contingency from Rivendell and potentially even from Lindon. I believe that Elrond was not directly involved in person.

I think it interesting that in the LoTR we get strong lead up about both Celeborn and Erestor being reputedly so wise. Yet, much of what they say in LoTR would lead one to at least wonder about these reputations.

[Jon S.]

And this one's from a post on The Tolkien Forum:

Elrond, Galadriel & Cirdan are definitely mentioned.

One can assume from what Glorfindel says at The Council Of Elrond, "It is clear now that even at the Council his (Saruman's) feet were already on a crooked path."
This certainly seems to be said in a first hand knowledge sort of way.
Also, he is called an "Elf lord from a house of princes" by Gandalf to Frodo.

Maybe Erestor, called cheif of the counsellors of Elrond's household (besides Glorfindel).

Probably Celeborn. Galadriel, while more 'powerful', calls him "The Lord of the Galadrim" & says he "is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-Earth".

Possibly even Thrandruil too, although I doubt that as he seems like a bit of a jerk in The Hobbit. However, he IS king of a major power in the struggle against Evil, & is to whom they bring Gollum after capturing him.
BUT, thinking as I write this, he seems to be present in Northern Mirkwood when The White Council is meeting for the final time & Sauron retreats from Dol Guldur. However, as Gandalf reappears at the Battle of 5 Armies, I guess Thranduil could've left after the Dwarves escaped & come back with Gandalf.

Also, maybe Elrond's 2 sons.

So, there was probably at least 5 Elves, Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, Glorfindel & Celeborn, plus the 2 Wizards & maybe another 2-5 Elves who probably didn't have as much clout.

Now, Gandalf was never chosen to head the White Council & refused.
Galadriel wanted him, but he refused. Nothing's ever said that the job was his, just that he wouldn't take it.

So, I can see a dialogue where they debate the leadership & Galadriel says "How about Gandalf?"
& Gandalf says "I wouldn't take it even if you choose (or vote for) me." & then basically Saruman gets it.
But, also remember, Saruman wasn't necessarily 2nd choice. It only says Galadriel wanted Gandalf. Note:

1. Saruman was of the same 'people of Aule' as Sauron, so more like him in skills & knowledge.

2. Gandalf says to Frodo "He is the chief of my Order & mighty among The Wise."

[Gordis]

Awesome posts, Jon S.! I envy your knowledge of the sources.

What is then your answer to the question: Why did the White Counsil leave the Necromancer in peace for 1800 years?

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by gordis

Awesome posts, Jon S.! I envy your knowledge of the sources.

What is then your answer to the question: Why did the White Counsil leave the Necromancer in peace for 1800 years?

I don't have an answer. But what I'm thinking of right now is how I'd answer a question, say from my kids, as to why the other European countries left Adolph Hitler in peace until their hands were called. Perhaps the factors underlying the White Council's response weren't all that different.

[Gordis]

Exactly, Jon S, exactly! IMHO, the European countries left Hitler in peace hoping he will turn East and attack the USSR. Stalin hoped for a lasting alliance with Hitler and wished him attack the West. The results were desastrous both for the western countries and for Russians.
Wasn't it the same with the Elves?

[Jon S.]

Well, I'm not sure who else the Elves thought Sauron would attack besides them (who are you thinking of, men or dwarves?). I meant more along the lines of Europe had not too long ago already fought a World War, were weary of fighting, death, and destruction, and also (foolishly, in retrospect) thought Hitler's Germany could be either contained or appeased.

Perhaps the Elves felt some of these same feelings towards Sauron at those times.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by gordis

Exactly, Jon S, exactly! IMHO, the European countries left Hitler in peace hoping he will turn East and attack the USSR. Stalin hoped for a lasting alliance with Hitler and wished him attack the West. The results were desastrous both for the western countries and for Russians.
Wasn't it the same with the Elves?

Exactly the same!I have a foolish habit to look everywhere for our human race history’s analogies, and this reminds me the flight school near Lipetsk in Russia . There the Luftwaffe’s pilots were taking a flight training and an upgraiding courses before the World War II . Under the terms of Versalle’s Treaty Germany couldn’t have army , let alone to build up an army’s commanding personnel. So, Vermaht’s officers took their training on USSR territory. Stalin has been schooling a were-wolf to sic him on Europe. Everybody knows how it ended up…
Hence, the very similar wolf was groving and maturing in Mirkwood’s Dol Guldur.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Well, I'm not sure who else the Elves thought Sauron would attack besides them (who are you thinking of, men or dwarves?).

I meant Gondor. I believe that this "clarification" of Elvish policy was originally Olmer's idea. I agree with his POV. This has been discussed at length in "Why did the Ring betray Isildur thread":

Originally Posted by Olmer

Why evil fortress had been built in the middle of Elves realm and in very close proximity to Lorien and allowed to stay for 2000 years?
That's easy.The whole history of Dol Guldur suggests that it was a silent agreement amongs the Wise to consider Sauron as a counterweight of the Gondor's Empire , which already was clasping its greedy hands on far away countries. With wealth of such proportion that kids of Gondor would play with gemstones as they would do with pebbles, and with manpower many times enforced by slaves and servants from submissed countries I would't consider Gondor as harmless.
The Elves did not consider either. There was some kind of temporary peace agreement between Sauron and the Elves.

[Uinor]

It was the annual Socerers Outdoor Celebrity Cookout.........they closed the wetbar early which did not go over well with the guests. Somone pulled a wand, and one thing led to another. Several arrests were reported.