The last 3 to be made?

[Durin1]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

If Celebrimbor was capable of making more powerful Rings than the three he had already made then why did he not just flee Eregion and create more Rings that wouldn't be binded by the One? Instead he hid the three as if there sort would never again be made upon ME.

Firstly, In Tale of Years it says of the jewel-smiths that (paraphrased): they reach the height of their power.

Celebrimbor had reached the height of his skill. Why would he try and make more rings if all his thought went into the 3 elvish rings?

... and even if Celebrimbor wanted to make more rings (which is illogical) when would he have had the time and effort? Sauron, realising the elves perceived him through the One, used Plan B: to take the rings by force. This was only about a year or 2 later.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

My point exacly. I was saying that if they weren't the height of his power (which I've said they were) then he could have made others that weren't bound to the One.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Durin1

Firstly, In Tale of Years it says of the jewel-smiths that (paraphrased): they reach the height of their power.

I understood this differently when I read this part first - I thought Tolkien meant that they reached the best they did and will do... which doesn't mean much, since they died 100 years after by Sauron (but probably weren't thinking most of the time of making rings but weapons, they knew they're going to fight Sauron).

Or, maybe I didn't understand well.

[Elemmírë]

Found it...

c. 1500: The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power.
c. 1590: The Three Rings are completed in Eregion.
c. 1600: Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dûr. Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron.

You can look at this and say that no matter what, "height of power" means that they could not have perfected their skills in any situation.

Or you can believe that this statement means that this was the height of skill that they actually reached. It is undeniable that they did not get any better (since they were all killed), but this second interpretation simply states the obvious and makes no claim of what might have been.

Am I correct in believing that you're following the second interpretation, RtB?

IMO, the second makes more sense. In fact, I must say that there is something of a contradiction here. If they reach the height of power in 1500, why does it take an extra 90 years to make the Three Rings? In my mind, this indicates that by 1500 they had reached the point where they could make Rings of Power. Obviously though, these skills could still be refined and were still being refined 90 years later.

I think it could be argued that had Sauron not made the One Ring ten years later, further refinement would still have been possible.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Found it...



You can look at this and say that no matter what, "height of power" means that they could not have perfected their skills in any situation.

Or you can believe that this statement means that this was the height of skill that they actually reached. It is undeniable that they did not get any better (since they were all killed), but this second interpretation simply states the obvious and makes no claim of what might have been.

Am I correct in believing that you're following the second interpretation, RtB?

IMO, the second makes more sense. In fact, I must say that there is something of a contradiction here. If they reach the height of power in 1500, why does it take an extra 90 years to make the Three Rings? In my mind, this indicates that by 1500 they had reached the point where they could make Rings of Power. Obviously though, these skills could still be refined and were still being refined 90 years later.

I think it could be argued that had Sauron not made the One Ring ten years later, further refinement would still have been possible.

Yes, the second interpretation is the one I meant.. I did look at it, after looking in the Silmarillion (and nothing about it is mentioned there, just that they made the greatest work ever made since Feanor)

What you're saying afterwards, though, doesn't contradict their interpretation, as I see it. The fact that it takes them a lot of time to make the Rings doesn't turn the theory that it was their height of power wrong.. IMO it has nothing to do with it.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

What you're saying afterwards, though, doesn't contradict their interpretation, as I see it. The fact that it takes them a lot of time to make the Rings doesn't turn the theory that it was their height of power wrong.. IMO it has nothing to do with it.

Well, it seems to me that they continuously made more powerful Rings. The Three were the last ones that Celebrimbor made, and this was clearly after they started making them 90 years earlier. What I'm saying is that if they had already reached the height of their skill when they began to make the Rings, then how could the ones finished 90 years later be more powerful than the earlier ones?

Does that make sense?

[Pytt]

maybe it just took time for them to make these rings. but I still think they could have made more powerful rings, if not Sauron had created the one. as I see it, Celebrimbor is not exhausted yet, not completely.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Well, it seems to me that they continuously made more powerful Rings. The Three were the last ones that Celebrimbor made, and this was clearly after they started making them 90 years earlier. What I'm saying is that if they had already reached the height of their skill when they began to make the Rings, then how could the ones finished 90 years later be more powerful than the earlier ones?

Does that make sense?

Because it says 'The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power.'(Bolding used to emphasis my point)
It says Elven-Smiths, which indicates that it was more than one Elven-Smith that made the earlier Rings. Celebrimbor alone made the three and he was the most natural Smith their and probably the best. So the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, without Sauron's instuctions. The Nine and the Seven were made by more than one Elven-Smith, under the instuctions of Sauron who's thought was only in binding these Ring's with one more powerful one of his own.

[Radagast The Brown]

Yeah, I understand you now Elemmire. Makes a lot of sense.

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Because it says 'The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power.'(Bolding used to emphasis my point)
It says Elven-Smiths, which indicates that it was more than one Elven-Smith that made the earlier Rings. Celebrimbor alone made the three and he was the most natural Smith their and probably the best. So the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, without Sauron's instuctions. The Nine and the Seven were made by more than one Elven-Smith, under the instuctions of Sauron who's thought was only in binding these Ring's with one more powerful one of his own.

Again, I don't really see what you're proving by that.. you don't really know what Celebrimbor did before, and i don't think it really matters. It doesn't mean he couldnb't do better job, and we know he probably took part in making the lesser rings too.

Besides, I've always thought Celebrimbor used Sauron's "technics" when he made the Three - just that Sauron didn't actually touched/saw them.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

Again, I don't really see what you're proving by that.. you don't really know what Celebrimbor did before, and i don't think it really matters. It doesn't mean he couldnb't do better job, and we know he probably took part in making the lesser rings too.

I agree with you, RtB... But I think TD is arguing that because Celebrimbor is only mentioned in the making of the Three, if one were to assume that he was not involved in the making of the others, then it could be argued that he was already at the height of his power 90 years earlier and simply... took his time, I suppose. In which case "height of skill" could be argued to mean potential height as well as practical.

An awful lot of arguing and assuming going on there, though... especially by me...

Besides, I've always thought Celebrimbor used Sauron's "technics" when he made the Three - just that Sauron didn't actually touched/saw them.

I don't think that TD is saying Celebrimbor made the three with his own and original technique... simply that Sauron did not personally instruct him.

I'm not sure what TD is arguing here either...

Perhaps that Celebrimbor should be counted as something separate from the "Elven-smiths"? Now there's an interesting idea...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

What I'm saying is that Celebrimbor was probably the mos talented of the Elven-Smiths (being the grandson of Fëanor).

c. 1500: The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power

If the Elven-Smiths reach the height of their power then I'm presuming that Celebrimbor did aswell. I take 'height of their skill' to mean that this is the best that they could accomplish, which will logically mean that Celebrimbor made the best Rings he could. If they weren't then why not? Surely it's better to make something as best as you can.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

What I'm saying is that Celebrimbor was probably the mos talented of the Elven-Smiths (being the grandson of Fëanor).

If the Elven-Smiths reach the height of their power then I'm presuming that Celebrimbor did aswell. I take 'height of their skill' to mean that this is the best that they could accomplish, which will logically mean that Celebrimbor made the best Rings he could. If they weren't then why not? Surely it's better to make something as best as you can.

If you read Elemmire's post (#44) you'd find an explanation that I think more logical to 'The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill.' and what you quotes afterwards was a reason why she thought so.