Some people....

ArwenEvenstar · 12-30-2001, 02:07 PM

You know whats really annoying? I wanted to take my aunt to see FOTR, but shes christian and her friends say there's to much magic in FOTR so now she won't go!!

CardenIAntauraNauco · 12-30-2001, 02:47 PM

Yeah some people are offended by that kind of thing. I am a christian myself and I see nothing wrong with magic as it is portrayed in Lord of the Rings.

Remember when Galadriel was talking to Frodo and said "This I believe is what your kind calls magic although I do not understand clearly what you mean..." It leads me to believe that it is not magic,persay just powers of the race of the person using it. Or powers from above ie."Elbereth Gilthoniel"Something we do even in this world. Prayer is a very christian concept. Tell her the kind of "magic" used in LOTR is the same kind of "Magic" used by the prophets of the old testament...Prayer

ArwenEvenstar · 12-30-2001, 02:56 PM

it's not her it's her friends advice- who's she going to listen to, me or her friend

CardenIAntauraNauco · 12-30-2001, 03:01 PM

Thats too bad...oh well
Im sure her friends intentions are good.

Reverie · 12-30-2001, 04:15 PM

My husband and I love the fantasy genre and RPGs, to most of his family this makes us devil worshippers...some people you just have to write off!! Good luck w/ your aunt.

andustar · 12-30-2001, 05:37 PM

hah yes. If anyone is interested, here is a link to a site that agrees with Arwen's aunt's friends. Incidentally, I have to say that I think it is complete... let's be polite here... er... nonsense.

Although if you want to enter into the whole debate I warn you I'm not joining in. I'm sure everyone who goes to entmoot agrees with me anyway, and there's no point just going on about how much they are wrong, blah, blah, blah... I completely disagree with them, and that's that.

two links, actually. The first is genuine, the second an obviously a fake, but it's funny and some idiots believed it. (look at the url)

http://www.capalert.com/capreports/l...fellowship.htm

and

http://urbanlegends.about.com/librar.../aa080900a.htm

(go to the second page for the actual e mail)

samwise of the shire · 12-30-2001, 06:16 PM

Actually if she read LOTR she would find that it has many Christian themes. It's right under your nose when Gandalf sacrafices himself for the Fellowship,comes back as Gandalf the White,and banishes Saruman from the council. That's a total representation of Jesus if I ever saw one in fantasy genre.And theoden Is kind of like a Chrsitain. His wits were clouded over by Saruamns lies and was in deep doo-doo when Gandalf came along and pulled him out of it. And look at Frodo and Sam. Frodo decides to take a terrible burden and leave his home of comfort in the Shire to take this burden to Mordor so that it would'nt endanger his Shire or anyone else and on the way he's wounded many times,betrayed and worst of all he's bearing this Ring that is trying to get back to it's master so that he could overcome the world.
I've got this forum place called Tar-Ost-In-Eruhir. You might wanna do a search on it. It's a forum where I visit ocassionally. Not alot goes on there but it's a place where Chrsitians can discuss the Christian themes in LOTR. It might be a good place to put her questions and have them answered.
Oh BTW tell her that J.R.R Tolkien was a Christian. That might help our cause.

Sam

Michael Martinez · 12-31-2001, 03:27 AM

Tolkien's Christianity was not so overtly imposed upon The Lord of the Rings as that, but he did describe the book as a very Catholic work. He was speaking of the values (personal choice, consequences for actions, faithfulness and servitude, etc.), not of the symbology people perceive in the book.

There are no Christ-figures in LoTR, but Gandalf is an angelic being (as Tolkien put it).

Lightice · 12-31-2001, 08:20 AM

*sigh*
Damn those fundamentalists are annoying...
I hate their picture of their faith, that seems to have becomed idea of whole christianity: "We are right and you rest are wrong and go to Hell. "
Becouse of that, and many other things, I've left christianity behind. Much more freedom of taught. I'm not a complete atheist, but I don't think, that any religion in this ball of dust is right.
If there is Universal Thruth, I'm sure, that no one could expect what it's like. Thus, having religion is much renouncing reality, but so many people couldn't live in reality, so they've created religions.
OK, enough of this ranting for me. I hope, that no one was offended by it.

bropous · 12-31-2001, 12:00 PM

Well, old John Roald Ruel and C. S. Lewis [author of the Chronicles of Narnia] were great buddies, and although J.R.R. got sorta annoyed that Lewis seemed to incorporate some of the Lord of the Rings' themes in his books, both remained great friends. The Chronicles of Narnia are loved by a lot of Christians out there, because of its undertones of christianity.

Funny that your aunt took this slant. On Christmas, at my brother's house, his sister-in-law and mine were discussing taking the kids to see the film. His sister-in-law's kids are in a Christian school, and she had heard exactly the opposite through her school, that it was a very positive movie and reinforced Christian ethics. I can hardly disagree.

Not needing to equivocate Gandalf with Jesus, or Sauron with Satan, the simple pure ethics of the film are these: Loyalty; dedication to good; fighting evil; holding true to faith in the face of adversity; self-sacrifice for the good of others; belief in a power greater than the self; belief that things happen for a reason beyond the ken of men, among others.

Heck, I'm an atheist, but I can readily admit that this film reflects some of the BEST aspects of Christianity. I think it teaches good values and is a good influence on children. I just hope some of the more knee-jerk fundamentalists out there will listen to a variety of opinions on the film, then go to see for themselves if this film sanctifies that to which they are opposed. I feel it only reinforces their beliefs.

Good points you are making here, my fellows.

***Ben*** · 12-31-2001, 12:45 PM

Sorry, those people who avoid it due to the magic are insane. There is no reason to avoid Harry Potter either. And I resent trying to pacify these people by telling them of the "Christian values" of friendship, sacrifice, etc contained in the film. Those are hardly values unique to one religion - they're just positive values.

bropous · 12-31-2001, 12:55 PM

Agreed, bmilder, those are simply positive, human values. I think having to convince someone to take a chance at enjoying a variety of entertainment by stating it reinforces their beliefs is a tad droll. Someone who shuts off avenues of fun in fear they may hear an idea contrary to their beliefs is a rather limited individual. I do like it, though, when we are able to convince one of that limited mindset to stretch out of their bounds...

Of course, that is simply my humble newly entling-ish opinion....

12-30-2001, 02:07 PM	#1
ArwenEvenstar Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: and why do YOU want to know? Posts: 685	Some people.... You know whats really annoying? I wanted to take my aunt to see FOTR, but shes christian and her friends say there's to much magic in FOTR so now she won't go!! __________________ The only thing active about me is my imagination!

12-30-2001, 02:47 PM	#2
CardenIAntauraNauco Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: rural oklahoma Posts: 324	Yeah some people are offended by that kind of thing. I am a christian myself and I see nothing wrong with magic as it is portrayed in Lord of the Rings. Remember when Galadriel was talking to Frodo and said "This I believe is what your kind calls magic although I do not understand clearly what you mean..." It leads me to believe that it is not magic,persay just powers of the race of the person using it. Or powers from above ie."Elbereth Gilthoniel"Something we do even in this world. Prayer is a very christian concept. Tell her the kind of "magic" used in LOTR is the same kind of "Magic" used by the prophets of the old testament...Prayer __________________ "We will have peace","Yes we will have peace...we will have peace when you and all your works have perished - and the works of your dark lord to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar,Saruman,and a corrupter of men's hearts. You hold out your hand to me and I percieve only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just - as it was not,for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine, for your own profit you desired-even so, what will you say of your Torches in westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Hama's body before the gates of Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanc. So much for the House of Eorl. A lesser son of greater Sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewither for I fear your voice has lost it's charm. Last edited by CardenIAntauraNauco : 12-30-2001 at 02:50 PM.

12-30-2001, 02:56 PM	#3
ArwenEvenstar Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: and why do YOU want to know? Posts: 685	it's not her... it's not her it's her friends advice- who's she going to listen to, me or her friend __________________ The only thing active about me is my imagination!

12-30-2001, 03:01 PM	#4
CardenIAntauraNauco Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: rural oklahoma Posts: 324	Thats too bad...oh well Im sure her friends intentions are good. __________________ "We will have peace","Yes we will have peace...we will have peace when you and all your works have perished - and the works of your dark lord to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar,Saruman,and a corrupter of men's hearts. You hold out your hand to me and I percieve only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just - as it was not,for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine, for your own profit you desired-even so, what will you say of your Torches in westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Hama's body before the gates of Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanc. So much for the House of Eorl. A lesser son of greater Sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewither for I fear your voice has lost it's charm.

12-30-2001, 05:37 PM	#6
andustar Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: London Posts: 217	hah yes. If anyone is interested, here is a link to a site that agrees with Arwen's aunt's friends. Incidentally, I have to say that I think it is complete... let's be polite here... er... nonsense. Although if you want to enter into the whole debate I warn you I'm not joining in. I'm sure everyone who goes to entmoot agrees with me anyway, and there's no point just going on about how much they are wrong, blah, blah, blah... I completely disagree with them, and that's that. two links, actually. The first is genuine, the second an obviously a fake, but it's funny and some idiots believed it. (look at the url) http://www.capalert.com/capreports/l...fellowship.htm and http://urbanlegends.about.com/librar.../aa080900a.htm (go to the second page for the actual e mail) __________________ ~ andustar/shani

12-30-2001, 04:15 PM	#5
Reverie Enting Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Back Home!! Posts: 57	My husband and I love the fantasy genre and RPGs, to most of his family this makes us devil worshippers...some people you just have to write off!! Good luck w/ your aunt.

12-30-2001, 06:16 PM	#7
samwise of the shire Radically Tolkienited Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: If home is where the heart is, and my heart is in heaven...that should answer your question. <+>< Posts: 967	Actually if she read LOTR she would find that it has many Christian themes. It's right under your nose when Gandalf sacrafices himself for the Fellowship,comes back as Gandalf the White,and banishes Saruman from the council. That's a total representation of Jesus if I ever saw one in fantasy genre.And theoden Is kind of like a Chrsitain. His wits were clouded over by Saruamns lies and was in deep doo-doo when Gandalf came along and pulled him out of it. And look at Frodo and Sam. Frodo decides to take a terrible burden and leave his home of comfort in the Shire to take this burden to Mordor so that it would'nt endanger his Shire or anyone else and on the way he's wounded many times,betrayed and worst of all he's bearing this Ring that is trying to get back to it's master so that he could overcome the world. I've got this forum place called Tar-Ost-In-Eruhir. You might wanna do a search on it. It's a forum where I visit ocassionally. Not alot goes on there but it's a place where Chrsitians can discuss the Christian themes in LOTR. It might be a good place to put her questions and have them answered. Oh BTW tell her that J.R.R Tolkien was a Christian. That might help our cause. Sam __________________ Jesus is my all in all <><+<><+<><+<><+<><+<><+ People who are so concerned with escapism do have a name...we call them jailers. ~J.R.R Tolkien Radically Saved, Totally Tolkienited GOD... BLESS... AMERICA...

12-31-2001, 03:27 AM	#8
Michael Martinez Elven Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 892	Tolkien's Christianity was not so overtly imposed upon The Lord of the Rings as that, but he did describe the book as a very Catholic work. He was speaking of the values (personal choice, consequences for actions, faithfulness and servitude, etc.), not of the symbology people perceive in the book. There are no Christ-figures in LoTR, but Gandalf is an angelic being (as Tolkien put it). __________________ http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/ http://www.michael-martinez.com/ http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/

12-31-2001, 08:20 AM	#9
Lightice Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 192	sigh Damn those fundamentalists are annoying... I hate their picture of their faith, that seems to have becomed idea of whole christianity: "We are right and you rest are wrong and go to Hell. " Becouse of that, and many other things, I've left christianity behind. Much more freedom of taught. I'm not a complete atheist, but I don't think, that any religion in this ball of dust is right. If there is Universal Thruth, I'm sure, that no one could expect what it's like. Thus, having religion is much renouncing reality, but so many people couldn't live in reality, so they've created religions. OK, enough of this ranting for me. I hope, that no one was offended by it.

12-31-2001, 12:00 PM	#10
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Well, old John Roald Ruel and C. S. Lewis [author of the Chronicles of Narnia] were great buddies, and although J.R.R. got sorta annoyed that Lewis seemed to incorporate some of the Lord of the Rings' themes in his books, both remained great friends. The Chronicles of Narnia are loved by a lot of Christians out there, because of its undertones of christianity. Funny that your aunt took this slant. On Christmas, at my brother's house, his sister-in-law and mine were discussing taking the kids to see the film. His sister-in-law's kids are in a Christian school, and she had heard exactly the opposite through her school, that it was a very positive movie and reinforced Christian ethics. I can hardly disagree. Not needing to equivocate Gandalf with Jesus, or Sauron with Satan, the simple pure ethics of the film are these: Loyalty; dedication to good; fighting evil; holding true to faith in the face of adversity; self-sacrifice for the good of others; belief in a power greater than the self; belief that things happen for a reason beyond the ken of men, among others. Heck, I'm an atheist, but I can readily admit that this film reflects some of the BEST aspects of Christianity. I think it teaches good values and is a good influence on children. I just hope some of the more knee-jerk fundamentalists out there will listen to a variety of opinions on the film, then go to see for themselves if this film sanctifies that to which they are opposed. I feel it only reinforces their beliefs. Good points you are making here, my fellows. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

12-31-2001, 12:45 PM	#11
*Ben* Retired Ent Join Date: Sep 1999 Posts: 60,631	Sorry, those people who avoid it due to the magic are insane. There is no reason to avoid Harry Potter either. And I resent trying to pacify these people by telling them of the "Christian values" of friendship, sacrifice, etc contained in the film. Those are hardly values unique to one religion - they're just positive values. __________________ ---Ben formerly known in the forums as bmilder Owner of The Tolkien Trail and Entmoot. Buy Entmoot shirts and mugs!

12-31-2001, 12:55 PM	#12
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Agreed, bmilder, those are simply positive, human values. I think having to convince someone to take a chance at enjoying a variety of entertainment by stating it reinforces their beliefs is a tad droll. Someone who shuts off avenues of fun in fear they may hear an idea contrary to their beliefs is a rather limited individual. I do like it, though, when we are able to convince one of that limited mindset to stretch out of their bounds... Of course, that is simply my humble newly entling-ish opinion.... __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

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