Faramir and Hector

[matthew]

There definitely is a parellel between the two... I hadn't thought of that. Although Boromir was obviously much more of a "fighter" than Paris, I think the more important side is Faramir/Hector as the rightous war-hating warrior.
Also, Priam/Denethor is a bit of a comparison, as in old guy-king-father... Although Denethor was corrupted in the end by palantir, they would have been very similar...
Anyway, good point.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Turambar1982

Coming back to the main topic of the thread, I have something for you mooters. I believe there exists a letter written by Tolkien himself (´don't remember the exact number, but I'll look it up asap) where he talks about the geographical setting of Middle-Earth. He compares (of course) Hobbingen to England and (if remember correctly) Minas Tirith with the site of ancient Troy. Coincidence? Not IMPOV.

Not exactly.

From Letter 294:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien

Middle-earth...corresponds spiritually to Nordic Europe

Not Nordic, please! A word I personally dislike; it is associated, though of French origin, with racialist theories. Geographically Northern is usually better. But examination will show that even this is inapplicable (geographically or spiritually) to 'Middle-earth'. This is an old word, not invented by me, as reference to a dictionary such as the Shorter Oxford will show. It meant the habitable lands of our world, set amid the surrounding Ocean. The action of the story takes place in the North-west of 'Middle-earth', equivalent in latitude to the coastlands of Europe and the north shores of the Mediterranean. But this is not a purely 'Nordic' area in any sense. If Hobbiton and Rivendell are taken (as intended) to be at about the latitude of Oxford, then Minas Tirith, 600 miles sout, is at about the latitude of Florence. The Mouths of Anduin and the ancient city of Pelargir are at about the latitude of ancient Troy.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Regardless, you are in error to equate Boromir's lust for the ring with Paris's lust for Helen. While there most certainly are similarities, you cannot overlook the incredible differences: Boromir wanted the ring in order to save his people from destruction, whereas Paris wanted Helen to satisfy his own desires. Furthermore, while Helen's great beauty may have been desirable, Boromir's desire for the ring was at least partially the result of a magical inflamation of the desires he already had. Not to mention that the results had Boromir successfully taken the ring would have been quite different from the results of Paris stealing away Helen.

Good points! I stand corrected.

Originally Posted by Turambar1982

Minas Tirith with the site of ancient Troy.

Interesting point! I don't think the small difference cited in the letter that Mr. Martinez referred us to counts.

Originally Posted by matthew

Also, Priam/Denethor is a bit of a comparison

I can't agree with this. Priam and Denethor have too much differences IMO for this to hold.

[Wayfarer]

[QUOTE=inked]Passion is as passion does. You will not contend that the two passions are unalike successfully. Regardless of the mitigating causes in both cases the passionate desire to excess was the evil. The desires were wrongly acted upon in each case.[QUOTE]

I agree that both characters performed, or attempted to perform, acts of great evil. Paris by kidnapping another man's wife, and Boromir by attempting to steal the ring.

However, I do contend that, while both did evil, the circumstances were such that I do not think Boromir can be said to have been evil. He was a noble man inflamed to perform an evil act by a power outside his control (the ring itself, which no man on earth could have resisted for long). Paris, on the other hand, was driven only by his own lusts.

To try and put it more clearly, I feel that:

Boromir was a noble man who was influenced by a power which he could not contend with, and through a selfless wish to help his people fell into the temptation to do an evil act.
Paris was a man who's selfish desires led him to do an evil act with no regard for the consequences to himself and others. In this, I consider him to have been an evil man (He willfully and knowingly did something which was morally wrong, and showed no regret afterwards)

I do not think that the desire to use the ring and help the Gondorians was equally evil to the desire to have sex with a hot chick at all costs. I really don't. Maybe I'm missing something here.

So, while both kidnapping Helen and stealing the ring were evil acts, that is, were both morally wrong and caused pain, I think it requires a look at the context of the act to determine whether the indivudal as a whole is morally bad.

Of course you can always go the route of saying that anyone who does evil is evil... there's certainly a case for that to be made.

[inked]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

So, while both kidnapping Helen and stealing the ring were evil acts, that is, were both morally wrong and caused pain, I think it requires a look at the context of the act to determine whether the indivudal as a whole is morally bad.

Of course you can always go the route of saying that anyone who does evil is evil... there's certainly a case for that to be made.

O Insufferable One, I am quoting your argument! therefore, it must be correct!
Quote:
But I think as humans we have gradations of evil that are useful descriptors as we tend not to view lying on the same plane as murder - though both may result in the death of persons.

Humans tend to make artificial distinctions. Even if we agree that there are gradiations of evil, the fact remains that an act is evil regardless of the degree. Evil is a quality, not a quantity.


Pesky things, arguments; much like definitions, don't you agree?

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Boromir was a noble man who was influenced by a power which he could not contend with

Paris also was influenced by "a power which he could not contend with" : the three godesses. Once he, a mortal, accepted to judge between the gods, he fell in way over his head.

[Beren3000]

Just realised, if Faramir is Hector, then the Witch King is Achilles

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Just realised, if Faramir is Hector, then the Witch King is Achilles

Then that means that Éowyn is Paris?

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Then that means that Éowyn is Paris?

So Faramir eventually got married to his own (brother/sister)

Seriously, though, do you think a discussion thread on the Iliad would be interesting?

[Valandil]

I'm fond of saying that every analogy breaks down at some point. I think we just found that point.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Seriously, though, do you think a discussion thread on the Iliad would be interesting?

if you're considering a discussion on the Illiad itself, then I would gladly participate. I think there are one or two threads about it in the general literature forum.

Originally Posted by Valandil

I'm fond of saying that every analogy breaks down at some point. I think we just found that point.

You may have been unable to establish a complete analogy between the Illiad and LoTR (let's face the thruth: J.R.R. Tolkien was just to clever and imaginative for that) but I think you've certainly established that the Illiad was a source of inspiration for the Professor.

[Turambar1982]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

Not exactly.

Well almost. I remembered it wrong then. A well. Cest la vie. Or something like that.