Annabel Lee=Luthien?

trolls' bane · 02-09-2004, 08:34 PM

I recently had to memorize Edgar Allan Poe's poem "Annabel Lee" for English class. When I read it, it reminded me so much of "The Lay of Leithian." Is that where tolkien got the idea for the tale of Beren and Luthien?

Shadowfax · 02-10-2004, 02:07 AM

Nope. Not that I know of. Tolkien modelled Luthien after his wife Edith, and Beren after himself. I have never heard that he was influenced by Poe. Now I'll have to read that poem sometime.

trolls' bane · 02-10-2004, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Now I'll have to read that poem sometime.

Don't expect me to write down a poem that long for you.

Shadowfax · 02-11-2004, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by trolls' bane
Don't expect me to write down a poem that long for you.

Hey, I never asked you to post it here; I'm perfectly able to find it myself!

Finrod Felagund · 02-12-2004, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shadowfax
Nope. Not that I know of. Tolkien modelled Luthien after his wife Edith, and Beren after himself. I have never heard that he was influenced by Poe. Now I'll have to read that poem sometime.

Well, actually, he just saw Edith as his Luthien, I don't believe they were modelled after him and her.

brownjenkins · 02-12-2004, 11:39 AM

there's certainly a touch of similarity, and obviously tolkien was very well-read... it may have been a part of what helped him develop his ideas... though he was also a known fan of the greek, roman and norse classics... and many of these themes originated from them

Dúnedain · 02-12-2004, 12:13 PM

I assume he was a fan of History as well, because a lot of his key characters of people resemble many different Historical peoples as well...

Ruinel · 02-29-2004, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dúnedain
I assume he was a fan of History as well, because a lot of his key characters of people resemble many different Historical peoples as well...

Can you elaborate on that?

Glorfindel_of_Gondolin · 03-25-2004, 09:07 AM

Well, I will.

Tolkien was a fan of language, and much of his Middle Earth and its peoples can find bases in Nordic and Germanic myths. A fact, I am sure, most already know.

I think the contention that is being made, that of a reference to Poe, is incorrect. He took sweeping ideas from history, and got whole names and places right out of the history books, but he still wrote his own story. His characters where his own.

Fenir_LacDanan · 04-03-2004, 11:44 AM

Above, by "he", read Tolkien.

Glorfindel_of_Gondolin · 04-03-2004, 11:46 AM

Hey, Thanks for the clarification, Fenir!

Saves me doing it

Finmandos12 · 04-27-2004, 10:12 PM

As someone stated, Beren and Luthien is based on Tolkien's courtship of his wife. Her parents were Protestant and didn't like the fact that JRR was Catholic, so when he asked permission to court her, they said they would only allow it if there was no contact between JRR and Edith for several years (I think three). The religious difference between JRR and his wife is like the Elf-Man difference between Beren and Luthien. And the several year wait seemed to be an impossible task, just as getting the Silmaril from Angband seemed to be impossible.

Count Comfect · 04-29-2004, 01:08 PM

I think it is fairly clear that Tolkien does not appear to have based Luthien/Beren on Annabel Lee. But there are still significant parallels - only in the opposite way, almost (guy with dead girl, not girl with dead guy).

Beren3000 · 05-29-2004, 05:21 PM

I strongly agree with you, Finmandos12. However, I think there is another reason why Tolkien made Luthien an elf and not a human. Before I explain my reason, let me first bring something to your notice: in all three elf-man marriages, the elf was always the woman. (Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Celebrindal, Aragorn and Arwen)
So, in my point of view, Tolkien regarded women as beautiful and exalted above others. So when a marriage happens a woman has to "descend" to the level of the man and grant him the honor of marrying her (bear with me here). In the same way the elven women gave up immortality to be with their lovers: they descended to the level of humans and granted them an honor. It couldn't happen the other way round: an elf male marrying a human woman. Because the male would then be "descending" which (according to Tolkien) is unthinkable.
Did I make sense? Or was that too incoherent? I hope not!
Tell me what you think!

Comic Book Guy · 06-30-2004, 06:33 PM

This exact question is dealt with in JRR's biography by Carpenter. Finmando12 has it all explained I think. Interestingly enough, Edith was also a lot older than JRRT.

02-09-2004, 08:34 PM	#1
trolls' bane Entmoot Secretary of the Treasury Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Campsite-by-Giraffe Posts: 5,408	Annabel Lee=Luthien? I recently had to memorize Edgar Allan Poe's poem "Annabel Lee" for English class. When I read it, it reminded me so much of "The Lay of Leithian." Is that where tolkien got the idea for the tale of Beren and Luthien? __________________ KI6PFA Amateur Radio Operator Last edited by trolls' bane : 02-09-2004 at 08:36 PM.

02-10-2004, 02:07 AM	#2
Shadowfax The Fleet-Footed Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: British Columbia Posts: 913	Nope. Not that I know of. Tolkien modelled Luthien after his wife Edith, and Beren after himself. I have never heard that he was influenced by Poe. Now I'll have to read that poem sometime. __________________ Jesus saved me "To remain ignorant of things that happened before you were born is to remain a child" (Cicero, 106-43 B.C.) "Art is a lie which makes us realize the truth" (Picasso)

02-12-2004, 11:39 AM	#6
brownjenkins Advocatus Diaboli Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Reality Posts: 3,767	there's certainly a touch of similarity, and obviously tolkien was very well-read... it may have been a part of what helped him develop his ideas... though he was also a known fan of the greek, roman and norse classics... and many of these themes originated from them __________________ Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.

02-12-2004, 12:13 PM	#7
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	I assume he was a fan of History as well, because a lot of his key characters of people resemble many different Historical peoples as well... __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

03-25-2004, 09:07 AM	#9
Glorfindel_of_Gondolin Hobbit Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: The High Seas Posts: 36	Well, I will. Tolkien was a fan of language, and much of his Middle Earth and its peoples can find bases in Nordic and Germanic myths. A fact, I am sure, most already know. I think the contention that is being made, that of a reference to Poe, is incorrect. He took sweeping ideas from history, and got whole names and places right out of the history books, but he still wrote his own story. His characters where his own. __________________ Taste Elven Steel, Creatures of the Dark Lord, and Despair!

04-03-2004, 11:44 AM	#10
Fenir_LacDanan Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Free, happy, drunk and sincere Posts: 346	Above, by "he", read Tolkien. __________________ Audaces fortuna juvat Last edited by Fenir_LacDanan : 05-09-2004 at 11:38 AM.

04-03-2004, 11:46 AM	#11
Glorfindel_of_Gondolin Hobbit Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: The High Seas Posts: 36	Hey, Thanks for the clarification, Fenir! Saves me doing it __________________ Taste Elven Steel, Creatures of the Dark Lord, and Despair!

04-27-2004, 10:12 PM	#12
Finmandos12 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Tampa Posts: 327	As someone stated, Beren and Luthien is based on Tolkien's courtship of his wife. Her parents were Protestant and didn't like the fact that JRR was Catholic, so when he asked permission to court her, they said they would only allow it if there was no contact between JRR and Edith for several years (I think three). The religious difference between JRR and his wife is like the Elf-Man difference between Beren and Luthien. And the several year wait seemed to be an impossible task, just as getting the Silmaril from Angband seemed to be impossible. __________________ The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

04-29-2004, 01:08 PM	#13
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	I think it is fairly clear that Tolkien does not appear to have based Luthien/Beren on Annabel Lee. But there are still significant parallels - only in the opposite way, almost (guy with dead girl, not girl with dead guy). __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

05-29-2004, 05:21 PM	#14
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	I strongly agree with you, Finmandos12. However, I think there is another reason why Tolkien made Luthien an elf and not a human. Before I explain my reason, let me first bring something to your notice: in all three elf-man marriages, the elf was always the woman. (Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Celebrindal, Aragorn and Arwen) So, in my point of view, Tolkien regarded women as beautiful and exalted above others. So when a marriage happens a woman has to "descend" to the level of the man and grant him the honor of marrying her (bear with me here). In the same way the elven women gave up immortality to be with their lovers: they descended to the level of humans and granted them an honor. It couldn't happen the other way round: an elf male marrying a human woman. Because the male would then be "descending" which (according to Tolkien) is unthinkable. Did I make sense? Or was that too incoherent? I hope not! Tell me what you think!

06-30-2004, 06:33 PM	#15
Comic Book Guy Best Ex-Administrator ever Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ireland Posts: 60,547	This exact question is dealt with in JRR's biography by Carpenter. Finmando12 has it all explained I think. Interestingly enough, Edith was also a lot older than JRRT.