Sonnet 130

Janny · 04-07-2004, 01:22 PM

I do not dispute that Shakespeare wrote a tremendous poem in Sonnet 130, but I question it on a philosophical level. Bit rich from a sixteen year old I know.

I question whether the notion of the perception of love is correct. Is it right to love for humanity, or should not the love be given on the perception of the almost divinity of whom one loves?

sun-star · 04-09-2004, 07:19 AM

You're talking about Shakespeare's "My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun" sonnet, aren't you?

Well, the first thing I'd say is it's not meant to be taken too seriously. Shakespeare wasn't averse to a bit of deification of women normally, but here he's gently pointing out the absurdity of claiming that every girl you happen to have a crush on is a perfect goddess. The clue is in the final couplet:

"And yet, by heaven, I think my love as fair
As any she belied with false compare"
(from memory - forgive mistakes)

He's saying it's wrong to call a woman a goddess when she isn't - it means you don't understand what makes her special. It's a trick of lazy poets to talk about eyes like the sun, breath like roses etc. This sonnet brings it down to earth a bit without diminishing in any way the reality of the love. That's why we forget the lazy poems and remember Shakespeare.

Shadowfax · 04-12-2004, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sun-star
You're talking about Shakespeare's "My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun" sonnet, aren't you?
[...]
He's saying it's wrong to call a woman a goddess when she isn't - it means you don't understand what makes her special. It's a trick of lazy poets to talk about eyes like the sun, breath like roses etc. This sonnet brings it down to earth a bit without diminishing in any way the reality of the love. That's why we forget the lazy poems and remember Shakespeare.

I think you've explained that very well, sun-star, and I agree with you. I really like that sonnet, but, I must admit, the first time I read it I was shocked, because I didn't get it; I thought he was being insulting!

When we talked about it in English, I was able to appreciate it more and understand what S. was really saying: that women are in reality human, like sun-star said. In answer to Janny's question, I think that it is right, and realistic to "love for humanity" as she says, because we all are, after all, human! I hope what I've siad makes sense, because I'm typing this at 1:40am [aaahhh, must get to bed...] !

Fenir_LacDanan · 04-21-2004, 11:25 PM

This sonnet is actually the cause of much debate and argument. I had to study it at Uni, twice in fact, once in "rennaisance literature", and once in "studying poetry", (you'd think a bloody university would sort itself out!).

There are two basic ways to read it:

The first is that shakespeare is playing parody on contempory sonnets of the day. So thus

" have seen roses damask’d, red and white, But no such roses see I in her cheeks,"

is a satire of other sonnet writers, whom contend the objects of their works have rosey cheeks.

The second is that Shakespeare is having a barb at Anne Hathaway, his forlorn and unhappy wife. Shakespeare married young, as he got poor Anne pregnant, and left her in Stratford to go to London and write. So thus

"And in some perfumes is there more delight, Than in the breath that from my mistress reeks, "

is an insult to Anne, or indeed, all women.

I prefere to read it as a satire, just because it makes Will Shakespeare seem no so much like a bastard!

Janny · 04-22-2004, 07:13 AM

Good grief! Did you just see that?

Fenir made a post which wasn't meant to be funny, contained no jokes about the shortness/roundness of our American bretheren, didn't act as a means for him to put his head between the jaws of JD and, above all, was not concerned with his fireman's hose, which I with many still contend is a small gardening impliment.

We don't do any sort of context for literature at GCSE level... dumb school.

All we got was 'in those days, some people had mistresses...'

Count Comfect · 04-22-2004, 10:28 PM

I did that sonnet for my English class (we had to recite poems). It is one of my favorites. It's a great mockery of all the other sonnets that were being written at the time (including some of Shakespeare's), which tended toward, as has been mentioned, deification of their subject.

Plus, in a Shakespearian style of sonnet, the last two lines are supposed to undercut the rest of the poem: so if they are complimentary, the rest of it has to not be.

sun-star · 04-23-2004, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Count Comfect
Plus, in a Shakespearian style of sonnet, the last two lines are supposed to undercut the rest of the poem: so if they are complimentary, the rest of it has to not be.

Good point.

Fenir_LacDanan · 04-24-2004, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Janny
Good grief! Did you just see that?
Fenir made a post which wasn't meant to be funny, contained no jokes about the shortness/roundness of our American bretheren, didn't act as a means for him to put his head between the jaws of JD and, above all, was not concerned with his fireman's hose, which I with many still contend is a small gardening impliment.
We don't do any sort of context for literature at GCSE level... dumb school. All we got was 'in those days, some people had mistresses...'

Hey Janny, cheers for noticing!

I'm sure I could point out that the time of the Brilliant William Shakespeare, a time in which Europe was enjoying a golden age of culture, industry, and military conquest; the Puritans were starving to death in Jamestown (thanks indeed for thanksgiving??),but that would just be naughty...

I agree with the Count, thats its a satire. God its good to be back.

***Khamûl*** · 05-06-2004, 01:37 AM

A friend of mine had the interpretation of "I love you, but why? There are prettier people out there." She's had some relationship issues lately though, so she looked at it differently than I did.

Janny · 05-06-2004, 11:04 AM

I agree, I've had that too It really sucks that someone who you don't even like can completely alter your view of literature. Or is that the beauty of literature, that it can vary so vastly depending on its reading? *Stikes another thoughtful pose*

**crickhollow** · 05-07-2004, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Khamûl
A friend of mine had the interpretation of "I love you, but why? There are prettier people out there." She's had some relationship issues lately though, so she looked at it differently than I did.

hehe ...I know someone else who took that interpretation. The daughter of a well-known English Dept. prof at my school had a boyfriend who knew next-to-nothing about Shakespeare. When Valentine's Day came around, he thought he'd surprise his girlfriend by writing out one of Shakespeare's sonnets, and giving it to her with her flowers. Unluckily for him, he happened to randomly pick sonnet 130. Poor Mitchell didn't last long...his girlfriend broke up with him shortly after that.

Janny · 05-08-2004, 01:27 PM

That's bad luck. Had he not known nothing about Shakespeare he may have even seen it as a good choice.
I think my ex blames Catcher in the Rye for my breaking with her...

***Khamûl*** · 05-09-2004, 01:26 AM

Bless his heart. I shouldn't be laughing, but I am.

Count Comfect · 05-09-2004, 01:43 AM

Well, you'd expect an English Prof's daughter to know BOTH interpretations...
But poor guy.

**crickhollow** · 05-09-2004, 01:16 PM

CC: I'm sure she knew the other interpretation, but you have to admit that women would rather hear, "you're so beautiful, but that isn't the only reason I love you." Rather than, "Well, beauty isn't the important thing, anyway."

Khamul: I heard somewhere that "Bless your heart" is Southern for "What an idiot"...is that true? :-D

***Khamûl*** · 05-12-2004, 02:03 AM

Crickhollow: Well... not exactly.

It can mean that you genuinely feel sorry for someone. However, it is an unwritten rule that you can say something mean about someone if you include "Bless his heart" in there somewhere. Example: "She got locked out of her car in the pouring rain? Bless her heart." or "But Kevin, bless his heart... he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer." Occasionally, it's a mix of the two, as in my last post. Sometimes, the comment is left unstated because the "Bless their heart" gets the message across that there's more to it. So yes, it can mean "what an idiot".

I hope this entry in my "Guide to Southernisms" helped.

**crickhollow** · 05-12-2004, 02:13 AM

Absolutely...thanks so much for enlightening me.

04-07-2004, 01:22 PM	#1
Janny The Blobbit Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...) Posts: 1,596	Sonnet 130 I do not dispute that Shakespeare wrote a tremendous poem in Sonnet 130, but I question it on a philosophical level. Bit rich from a sixteen year old I know. I question whether the notion of the perception of love is correct. Is it right to love for humanity, or should not the love be given on the perception of the almost divinity of whom one loves? __________________ Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton.

04-09-2004, 07:19 AM	#2
sun-star Lady of Letters Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England Posts: 2,476	You're talking about Shakespeare's "My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun" sonnet, aren't you? Well, the first thing I'd say is it's not meant to be taken too seriously. Shakespeare wasn't averse to a bit of deification of women normally, but here he's gently pointing out the absurdity of claiming that every girl you happen to have a crush on is a perfect goddess. The clue is in the final couplet: "And yet, by heaven, I think my love as fair As any she belied with false compare" (from memory - forgive mistakes) He's saying it's wrong to call a woman a goddess when she isn't - it means you don't understand what makes her special. It's a trick of lazy poets to talk about eyes like the sun, breath like roses etc. This sonnet brings it down to earth a bit without diminishing in any way the reality of the love. That's why we forget the lazy poems and remember Shakespeare. __________________ And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool.

04-21-2004, 11:25 PM	#4
Fenir_LacDanan Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Free, happy, drunk and sincere Posts: 346	This sonnet is actually the cause of much debate and argument. I had to study it at Uni, twice in fact, once in "rennaisance literature", and once in "studying poetry", (you'd think a bloody university would sort itself out!). There are two basic ways to read it: The first is that shakespeare is playing parody on contempory sonnets of the day. So thus " have seen roses damask’d, red and white, But no such roses see I in her cheeks," is a satire of other sonnet writers, whom contend the objects of their works have rosey cheeks. The second is that Shakespeare is having a barb at Anne Hathaway, his forlorn and unhappy wife. Shakespeare married young, as he got poor Anne pregnant, and left her in Stratford to go to London and write. So thus "And in some perfumes is there more delight, Than in the breath that from my mistress reeks, " is an insult to Anne, or indeed, all women. I prefere to read it as a satire, just because it makes Will Shakespeare seem no so much like a bastard! __________________ Audaces fortuna juvat

04-22-2004, 07:13 AM	#5
Janny The Blobbit Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...) Posts: 1,596	Good grief! Did you just see that? Fenir made a post which wasn't meant to be funny, contained no jokes about the shortness/roundness of our American bretheren, didn't act as a means for him to put his head between the jaws of JD and, above all, was not concerned with his fireman's hose, which I with many still contend is a small gardening impliment. We don't do any sort of context for literature at GCSE level... dumb school. All we got was 'in those days, some people had mistresses...' __________________ Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton.

04-22-2004, 10:28 PM	#6
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	I did that sonnet for my English class (we had to recite poems). It is one of my favorites. It's a great mockery of all the other sonnets that were being written at the time (including some of Shakespeare's), which tended toward, as has been mentioned, deification of their subject. Plus, in a Shakespearian style of sonnet, the last two lines are supposed to undercut the rest of the poem: so if they are complimentary, the rest of it has to not be. __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

05-06-2004, 01:37 AM	#9
*Khamûl* Slacker Warrior Admin Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,759	A friend of mine had the interpretation of "I love you, but why? There are prettier people out there." She's had some relationship issues lately though, so she looked at it differently than I did. __________________ "If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you." Gandalf to Pippin Psalm 107:31

05-06-2004, 11:04 AM	#10
Janny The Blobbit Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...) Posts: 1,596	I agree, I've had that too It really sucks that someone who you don't even like can completely alter your view of literature. Or is that the beauty of literature, that it can vary so vastly depending on its reading? Stikes another thoughtful pose __________________ Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton.

05-08-2004, 01:27 PM	#12
Janny The Blobbit Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...) Posts: 1,596	That's bad luck. Had he not known nothing about Shakespeare he may have even seen it as a good choice. I think my ex blames Catcher in the Rye for my breaking with her... __________________ Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton.

05-09-2004, 01:26 AM	#13
*Khamûl* Slacker Warrior Admin Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,759	Bless his heart. I shouldn't be laughing, but I am. __________________ "If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you." Gandalf to Pippin Psalm 107:31

05-09-2004, 01:43 AM	#14
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	Well, you'd expect an English Prof's daughter to know BOTH interpretations... But poor guy. __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

05-09-2004, 01:16 PM	#15
crickhollow The Buckleberry Fairy/Captain Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington State again (I miss Texas). Posts: 1,345	CC: I'm sure she knew the other interpretation, but you have to admit that women would rather hear, "you're so beautiful, but that isn't the only reason I love you." Rather than, "Well, beauty isn't the important thing, anyway." Khamul: I heard somewhere that "Bless your heart" is Southern for "What an idiot"...is that true? :-D __________________ A day will come at last when I Shall take the hidden paths that run West of the Moon, East of the Sun.

05-12-2004, 02:03 AM	#16
*Khamûl* Slacker Warrior Admin Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,759	Crickhollow: Well... not exactly. It can mean that you genuinely feel sorry for someone. However, it is an unwritten rule that you can say something mean about someone if you include "Bless his heart" in there somewhere. Example: "She got locked out of her car in the pouring rain? Bless her heart." or "But Kevin, bless his heart... he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer." Occasionally, it's a mix of the two, as in my last post. Sometimes, the comment is left unstated because the "Bless their heart" gets the message across that there's more to it. So yes, it can mean "what an idiot". I hope this entry in my "Guide to Southernisms" helped. __________________ "If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you." Gandalf to Pippin Psalm 107:31

05-12-2004, 02:13 AM	#17
crickhollow The Buckleberry Fairy/Captain Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington State again (I miss Texas). Posts: 1,345	Absolutely...thanks so much for enlightening me. __________________ A day will come at last when I Shall take the hidden paths that run West of the Moon, East of the Sun.

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