France wants to prevent students from wearing religious garb...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast
You are far too quick to leap in with a sarcastic comment.

You can view it as sarcasm - I think it is legitimate to look at how free French society truly is.

I shall, however, explain what I meant. I agree that America is an entirely different case- but she is not a yardstick. She may well be a beacon of tolerance and equal love but her principles sometimes cannot transfer to other, older nations with, and here's the important point, older problems.

What older problems is France dealing with? The only thing they are dealing with - as is the rest of Europe is their intolerance to outsiders and the feeling of hegemony of their society.

Did you read the article a while ago about France protecting its language from outside influences? That French is becoming less and less spoken?

Yes I did. I had posted things about that in the past and I think that is ridiculous. Languages are living things and just because less people speak it in the world, doesn't mean they have to protect it from outside infulences. One of the things that France has been upset with for a very long time is that their language isn't the official language of the world like it used to be. That is a completely different problem than accepting words like e-mail and so forth into the language. The English language is far more expressive because we do take words from outside languages and aren't affraid to. France went so far as to require all french websites to be in french - even though roughly 90% of all people using the web speak english.

I can understand wanting to lock everything down and preserving French. What is more dear to a nation that its language? Tolkien once said that everything about a nation can be told my its language.

I would think the principles of which the country stands for. France claims to stand for freedom. It seems to be freedom just as long as everyone is the same.

I am not a plenipotentiary for France so I cannot speak entirely for her but surely every nation holds its values as superior over that of others? Don't you force immigrants to make an Oath of Allegiance?
[

Actually - we do NOT force them to take an oath of allegiance. But if they want to become American citizens - they have to choose to become Americans and that means upholding our VALUES of FREEDOM and anyway - it's an oath to defend the United States, not give up their culture. It doesn't even say they must fully learn our language, although they need a rudimentary understanding English and they have to learn how our government works and our history. That is hardly infringing on their religious or cultural freedoms.

You hold your values of tolerance superior, surely, over the values of let's-all-hack-the-infidels? Surely you hold your values superior over the those of the 11th September terrorists? AND please note- by that sentence do not assume I hold the terrorist values to be true to all Muslims and so forth.

That is like saying who is better - a murderer rapist or sister theresa.

My point boils down to the fact that when one comes to a nation you should meld in. You say you are 100% American, don't you jerseydevil? Your Polish or whatever ancestors considered themselves American. So too should French Muslims consider themselves French. true to French values- which react with horror to the wearing of veils.

Why should they react in horror to the wearing of veils? It's a type of clothing, It is part of their religious belief. How is the wearing of a veil infringing on the freedoms and rights of others in France?

As to nuns and their habits that's I good point and one which has caught me out a bit, I must say. But I suppose that is a different case- because, by definition, they voluntarily became nuns, they therefore chose to wear the habit [they have very bad habits, by the way, those nuns ] whereas the veil is forced on them.

That is a stereotype "the veil is forced on them" - not everyone is it forced on. The two girls who were suppended were JEWISH who converted to islam and CHOSE to wear the veil. How was it forced on them? Also - parents force their children to do a lot of things. many parents - god forbid - FORCE actually FORCE their children to go to church. Maybe the state should come in and dictate to parents how they can raise their children.

[Falagar]

What older problems is France dealing with? The only thing they are dealing with - as is the rest of Europe is their intolerance to outsiders and the feeling of hegemony of their society.

The USA consists of people from all over the world (former Africans, Europeans, Asians, and what is left of the native Americans, osv), crammed into one (admittetly huge) country. The countries of Europe have (for the most part) only one or two people in each. Thus, the European nations cling to their old traditions more than the US (for good and bad).

As far as I know, at least.

Edit: I think this can have had an effect on the American patriotism as well. You need much feeling for your country to unite all those different fractions.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Falagar
The USA consists of people from all over the world (former Africans, Europeans, Asians, and what is left of the native Americans, osv), crammed into one (admittetly huge) country. The countries of Europe have (for the most part) only one or two people in each. Thus, the European nations cling to their old traditions more than the US (for good and bad).

I agree with that. But what are the actual problems that France or Europe have to deal with? Is it their bigotry of outsiders? Because what you are saying is that they aren't used to outsiders and are trying to make sure their society doesn't get over run with different people and that the immigrants have no influence on French or European culture.

Just so you know - we do adhere to our traditions - but we also accept other's traditions and mesh them in with American culture. That is why Americans basically now celebrate Cinque de Mayo. We celebrate many ethnic holidays. Basically the traditions of America - are the traditions of all the immigrants who have migrated to America.

I agree that Americ is used to immigrants and accepting outsiders more than Europe seems to be - I just don't think that an "enlightened" society should be so offended by people wearing religious symbols or people adhering to their religious beliefs. By the way - the religious ban is for hospitals too. Does that mean people won't be able to pray for a dying loved one?

[Hemel]

Just very quickly - over here in Britain I don't see us as being made up of just one or two peoples. That's because we have, apart from our older peoples, immigrants from a number of different places, and there are active attempts to redefine us as a multicultural society. Indeed, government documents aimed at the public are now often in, or available in, several different languages, and several initiatives, such as those in schools, acknowledge the multicultural aspects. (And even our older peoples are mixtures - though the mixing probably happened rather a longer time ago than in the US )

Having said that, my opinion is that the banning over in France of religious symbolisms is not a good idea. I can't see how it actually stops discrimination - merely it removes a couple of things that are handy labels of difference, but I think it leaves intact the basic problem. I would be very sorry if, over here, similar measures were to be taken.

Falagar's comment

I think this can have had an effect on the American patriotism as well. You need much feeling for your country to unite all those different fractions.

I agree with. It's been my opinion that this is one explanation for why USAmericans do feel this way, and I'd suggest that patriotism might well be something that is used as a uniting idea There is, btw, I believe, a difference between patriotism and nationalism.

And Radagast's comments I accept also - different people have different values, based on different things. That doesn't mean we should adopt absolute relativsm but it does mean accepting that not all people think the same way, and that thinking differently isn't automatically and of itself a reason for condemnation.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Hemel
Just very quickly - over here in Britain I don't see us as being made up of just one or two peoples. That's because we have, apart from our older peoples, immigrants from a number of different places, and there are active attempts to redefine us as a multicultural society. Indeed, government documents aimed at the public are now often in, or available in, several different languages, and several initiatives, such as those in schools, acknowledge the multicultural aspects. (And even our older peoples are mixtures - though the mixing probably happened rather a longer time ago than in the US )

Who were you "mixing" with? new Jersey alone was founded by many different religions, and nationalities. New Jersey during it's very founding in the 1600's was a melting pot.

New Jersey from Colony to State - 1609 - 1789

...Unlike New England, where the Puritan townsman typified the whole population, or the South where the tidewater English planter was equally predominant, New Jersey presented a picture of infinite variety. Its founders spoke many tongues, belonged to many religious denominations, practiced their arts and crafts in many different ways. Each distinctive group had its own contribution to make, and each was to leave a lasting inheritance to future generations.

Britain's multi-cultural society is mostly a result of of their colonialism. Many who came to settle in Britain were Indians and South Africans and other colonial locations - because they were able to freely go to Britain. The immigrants to the US had absolutely no ties to the US whatsoever though.

Falagar's comment I agree with. It's been my opinion that this is one explanation for why USAmericans do feel this way, and I'd suggest that patriotism might well be something that is used as a uniting idea There is, btw, I believe, a difference between patriotism and nationalism.

I agree that there is a difference. It seems like a lot of people don't see a difference, or they look at our patriotism to be the same as Nazi Germany's. There were posts in the past that had stated this very opinion.

[jerseydevil]

Anyone interested hearing about the French outlawing muslim headscarves from being worn in public buildings - especially schools can watch Nightline tonight.

February 9, 2004

TONIGHT'S FOCUS: Where do you draw the line between maintaining a secular state and allowing freedom of expression? Tomorrow the French National Assembly is set to vote to ban the display of religious symbols--the Muslim headscarf, large crucifixes and yarmulkes--at public schools. The plan has set off a raging debate in France, and it is a debate that is playing out all over the world, including in this country. The post 9-11 world has changed the way the world looks at anything to do with the Islamic faith.

---------------------------------------------------

France has the largest Muslim population in Europe, 5 million strong. And there is a feeling among some that the population has failed to assimilate into mainstream French culture and society. So the French government decided that the banning of headscarves in public schools would help that process. Of course the backlash was immediate, it was a move seen as discriminatory and anti-Islam. The ban was broadened to include religious symbols--crosses and yarmulkes--to make it an issue about secularism not Islam. But it hasn't been seen that way. Many Muslims see it as an assault on their faith and it has emboldened many who might not be inclined to display their faith publicly. You know how it goes. When you are 15 years old and your mother doesn't want you to wear that short skirt or revealing top, that is exactly what you want to wear. It is the only thing that you will wear. The best way to get young people to do something is to ban them from doing it.

The furor in France raises issues that are important for a country like the United States. In a secular society that prides itself on the separation between church and state, what is an appropriate public display of religion that doesn't interfere with the notion of secularism? It is a tough issue made more emotional by the visceral reaction that people have towards headscarves. For some it is a symbol of oppression, for others it is a symbol of women's strength and it mutes the objectification of women. In a free society, shouldn't we be free to demonstrate our faith? And with the U.S. at war with terrorism, how does this country balance the instinct to brand many of the Islamic faith as suspicious people and the need to see people of faith as individuals, allowing them to practice their faith without interfering for political or security reasons?

Correspondent Richard Gizbert will report from Paris and we are still working on guests for Chris Bury tonight. We hope you will join us for a broadcast that deals with one of the most difficult issues a free society faces.

Madhulika Sikka and the Nightline Staff
ABCNEWS Washington bureau

They won't have as much as I see on French news - such as the politician who wanted to outlaw muslim men from wearing beards in public buildings or schools.

Nightline is on ABC - at 11:30 eastern; 10:30 central

BTW - it's only large crosses that aren't allowed. You can still wear small crosses.

[EDIT] This is also seems odd. On French news they said that Alace-Moselle is except from the law since they have a long tradition of religion being taught in schools. They have crucifixes hanging up on the classroom walls - even rooms that don't teach religion, yet a girl in an Allace school has been suspended since November for wearing a headscarf in school. She was just allowed to go to school for the first day today after reaching a compromise - she will now wear a bandana instead. Now if a school is able to have crucifixes hanging on the wall - why can't muslim students wear their headscarf? This sounds more and more like descrimination and xenophobia.