Joking about bombs on planes...

[sun-star]

Originally posted by Valandil
I would venture to guess that we all stereotype groups of people to some extent - by religion, nationality, (ED: age), ethnicity - even body size and shape. It greatly simplifies life by giving us a starting point. What is then important is to find out how accurate our notions can be held across a group - and (probably most important) to allow for individual differences.

Stereotyping has some validity... it's just very important to understand its limitations.

I see your point, but isn't there a danger that, in allowing ourselves to stereotype a certain group as a "starting point" for knowing them better, we then (subconsiousy) fit the experience to the stereotype, thus perpetuating the fixed idea instead of replacing it? Example: someone thinks French people are arrogant. They meet a French person who says "France is a great country". Because they (subconsciously or consciously) expect to meet arrogant French people, they interpret this statement as arrogance, when if, say, a American said "America is a great country" they would interpret it as patriotism. So they go away thinking French people are arrogant. Now I know there are some statements that aren't open to a positive interpretation, but how do you distinguish between those statements and the negative ones if you expect negative ones?

That's why I think stereotypes are always a bad idea - sometimes impossible to avoid, but always a bad idea.

Unfortunately the paradox is that you have to be open-minded to allow challenge your prejudices to be challenged, but if you're open-minded you try not to have such prejudices in the first place

[brownjenkins]

very well put sun-star

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
... Pfft, I refuse to take a guy seriously who thinks that if you agree with the Bush administration, that you're anti-american.

I think you mean doesn't agree with the Bush administration... I guess I'm "anti-American" then.

However, I have to agree with one point that JD has made... he said that Europeans stereotype Americans all the time. That's true, in my experience.

Americans are...
- fat or overweight, because of the fast food they eat all the time
- arrogant, because they tout their own country as being 'the best'
- war mongers, because of the wars we've stepped into on behalf of other people or at their request, or actually started ourselves
- rich
- rude

THE FACTS...
- I weigh 115 lbs... I've been told that's not overweight... I hope not. Most people I know are actually NOT overweight. Sure I know a few pudgy people, but don't we all? I saw more fat people when visiting Europe the last time I went than I see here in my own country. I eat at fast food places about twice to three times a year. I happen to especially hate McDonald's. I still can't believe people in Europe eat that crap. Ick!
- Quite a lot of people emmigrate to the US from other countries. It gives us the impression that the US must be better than what they left. I'm not just talking third world countries, but Europe as well. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure other countries are great to live in, but I like where I live and the only country I'd live in besides here might be Canada... and it's pretty friggin' cold there.
- My roommate is a Quaker. I was against the war in Iraq because I felt it had to be a world effort or no effort at all. I am personally sick of using US tax dollars from US citizens and US lives to defend and rescue foreign nations who can't get their own [EDITED] together. We are NOT your police. Quit calling us to come help you all the damn time! Take care of your own business for a change! This is one of the reasons why such a HUGE chunk of money goes to the Defense Department instead of Education and world hunger!
- rich!?! BWAAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA
HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!! Compared to what? Have you seen teacher's salaries? My roommate is a teacher! I'm substituting part time! Give me a friggin' break here!
- rude... hmmm... it depends on where you go in the US. I found people in Pennsylvania to be cold and rude when I visited there. It was Christmas time, too. A time when people are supposed to be in the 'holiday spirit'. All I got was shoves, mean faces and rude remarks. However, if you come down to the South you'd find most people to be the opposite. People try to be pleasant and polite.

Last edited by Sister Golden Hair

[Ruinel]

As far as the stupid guy who joked that there was a bomb on the plane and that it was going to blow up... I think he should have seen jail time. What an idiot!!! And if the French News doesn't see how wrong he was for doing that, then they're idiots as well.

Think about how wrong that really was people.

[The Gaffer]

He did see jail time: 15 days. I totally agree with your above post. I totally disagree that Europeans stereotype Americans all the time. I'm European, and I know many thin, humble, peaceful, polite and/or poor Americans. QED.

They do stereotype Americans some of the time, and vice versa. What is to be gained by saying "Europeans stereotype Americans more than Americans stereotype Europeans"?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
He did see jail time: 15 days. I totally agree with your above post.

Oh! Woops! I didn't see that post. I thought he was slapped with a fine and that was all. I'm glad he got jail time. I hope it's a warning to anyone else who is as callous as this creep.

I totally disagree that Europeans stereotype Americans all the time. I'm European, and I know many thin, humble, peaceful, polite and/or poor Americans. QED.

Thanks. I know some nice Europeans, too. Some that actually like Americans or at least consider whether they like them based on their experience with each individual, and don't hate us all as a group.

They do stereotype Americans some of the time, and vice versa. What is to be gained by saying "Europeans stereotype Americans more than Americans stereotype Europeans"?

I wasn't looking to 'gain' anything. It was just an observation on my part, from my own experience. So, don't get upset!

I don't think anyone here that I know even gives a thought to Europeans at all, actually. I seriously can't recall a single conversation that anyone has started regarding stereotyping Europeans, etc. The only subjects we might bring up might be 'the Euro and it's effects on different economies', 'France's ultra-strict laws regarding religious symbolism in schools', and... hmmm... I can't think of anything at the time. I'll have to get back to you on that.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Artanis
So is this something that happens often?

Not often, but it does happen a few times a year, that we usually hear about it though...

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I wasn't looking to 'gain' anything. It was just an observation on my part, from my own experience. So, don't get upset!

Sorry, I didn't think you were.

Anyway, same here. When it does come up, people in the UK are far more likely to make sweeping derogatory statements about the Germans or French than they are about Americans.

Since we're still on stereotypes, here's a joke based on European stereotypes:

Heaven in Europe:
The French are the cooks
The Germans are the car mechanics
The British are the police
The Italians are the lovers
and it's all organised by the Swiss

Hell in Europe:
The British are the cooks
The French are the car mechanics
The Germans are the police
The Swiss are the lovers
and it's all organised by the Italians

This was told to me by a Swiss bloke, so er at least they can laugh at themselves.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by Ruinel
However, I have to agree with one point that JD has made... he said that Europeans stereotype Americans all the time. That's true, in my experience.

You know, I think that might be a stereotype in itself

[Valandil]

Originally posted by sun-star
You know, I think that might be a stereotype in itself

But at least it gives us a starting point, so to speak.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Valandil
But at least it gives us a starting point, so to speak.

A very bad starting point then, you McDonalds-loving, rich, rude and arrogant American.


Just kidding, of course.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Falagar
A very bad starting point then, you McDonalds-loving, rich, rude and arrogant American.

*Agh!* Guilty... but you forgot fat!

[Insidious Rex]

who are you calling rich!!

[BeardofPants]

Dammit, I feel all lonely. Why isn't anyone stereotyping the antipodeans?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
...some self-appointed cultural spokesperson, of limited wisdom and less tolerance..

Are you saying I am intolerant? have limited wisdom and am a self-appointed cultural spokseperson?

I don't care if you have a problem with me being a cultural spokesperson. It has been made clear by MANY Europeans and other non-Americans that they really don't think we have much of a culture. I have to educate these ignorant people.

As for intolerance - I am extremely tolerant - except when I see intolerance. I do not agree with the way that asshole talked about the US and how the French media - and from what they showed on the news - PUBLIC - was agreeing with him. That is where I am intolerant. I didn't call France a "soulless: country - they are calling us that though. No one here has come against him for saying that. You spout of your speech about me - but you say nothing about him and French media propgating negative stuff about the US and Americans. I have heard routinely on here though - that it must be MY fault.

As for having limited experience - that is just too ridiculous for words. The only reason you think I have limited wisdom is because you don't agree with me. You are liberal and I'm moderate.

Gaffer - it also doesn't matter if you have a ton of American friends - but do you have friends who have very different politcal beliefs than you? I do. I don't just judge people on their beliefs - I judge them on their person. I have friends who don't believe in evolution, I have friends who are extremely religious, I have friends who are extremely left. And just for your information I don't hate French people or Europeans. I actually don't hate anyone - other than assholes who have no problem going on the news to spew out ignorant crap about America and Americans for a problem THEY created.

You tell me if Europe doesn't think it is culturally superior to the US - if people don't think that British English is a superior English to American English. This has been demonstrated several times on this board (including by AMERICANS)- you just have to look at the Harry Potter forum, or some comments from other mooters throughout this forum. I personally don't think either one is superior and until I started seeing some of the stuff posted by Europeans - I didn't consider one language better than another. I still don't consider one language to be superior or nicer than another. I will go after the erroneous and ignorant statements about the US whereever I find them, whether they are made by Americans or non-Americans.

I don't eat at fast food restaurants - except when I meet my cousin for lunch because he works right next to a Wendy's. I'm not fat. I'm not lazy and I'm not ignorant. And contrary to your beliefs - I am not intolerant or lack wisdom.

Sun-Star - if a French person said their country is great that is great. As I have said in the past - I don't understand why it is such a sin in Europe to feel pride in your country. But I have seen plenty of British flying the Union jack on the side of the streets and stuff - so I don't really believe this is the case. I think what it really is - is that Europeans have a problem with AMERICANS showing pride in our country.

I do have a problem when someone says "I just got back from a young soulless country, and am glad to be back in old europe which has a soul and culture." That I take as a putdown - which it was meant to be and the media was basically agreeing with him and the public was supporting him.

Now I want to know - why doesn't Euopre try patching things up - why is it America that always has to be understanding and accepting? Our country is made up of people from all over the world who get along. We are the melting pot of the world - I think we have proved our acceptance of others. We aren't the ones restricting people's rights to wear beards or headscarves in public buildings (schools, hospitals) if they are muslim. it's funny how NON-Muslims can wear these things - but Muslims can't - as long as they have a religious connotation. To me that is a demonstration of intolerance in Europe - at least in France.

[brownjenkins]

Tolerance implies no lack of commitment to one's own beliefs. Rather it condemns the oppression or persecution of others.

~ John Fitzgerald Kennedy

[Nerdanel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
As for having limited experience - that is just too ridiculous for words. The only reason you think I have limited wisdom is because you don't agree with me. You are liberal and I'm moderate.

Sun-Star - if a French person said their country is great that is great. As I have said in the past - I don't understand why it is such a sin in Europe to feel pride in your country. But I have seen plenty of British flying the Union jack on the side of the streets and stuff - so I don't really believe this is the case. I think what it really is - is that Europeans have a problem with AMERICANS showing pride in our country.

I do have a problem when someone says "I just got back from a young soulless country, and am glad to be back in old europe which has a soul and culture." That I take as a putdown - which it was meant to be and the media was basically agreeing with him and the public was supporting him.

I'm just going to say something here. And JD, I know I don't comment on the most important things in your post, I just want to give my opinion on this.

I think everyone has limited wisdom. No one can know everything! But I understand that you got upset when I read the gaffer's post. If someone said that about me, I would be upset too.

I haven't noticed that Europeans consider pride in their country to be a sin. That's at least not the case here in Finland! My avatar says it all..

And finally: my friend went to the US for christmas and new year, and she loved it. Of course the US has a culture! Every country has a national identity, and culture is a part of that.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Nerdanel
I think everyone has limited wisdom. No one can know everything! But I understand that you got upset when I read the gaffer's post. If someone said that about me, I would be upset too.

Of course no one knows anything - but for him to say that I lack wisdom is ridiculous and you are right - I was pissed.

I haven't noticed that Europeans consider pride in their country to be a sin. That's at least not the case here in Finland! My avatar says it all..

Many seem to, but as I said - I don't really think it is so much that as they don't like us really having pride in our country. I don't know if that is the general feeling in Europe - just somethign I have seen on this board.

[EDIT] I have noticed that Scandanavians seem to have the pride in their country like we have pride in our country. Sweden, Norway and Finland joking around back and forth like we joke around with Canada and stuff. Doesn't seem to be the same in other parts of Europe though.

And finally: my friend went to the US for christmas and new year, and she loved it. Of course the US has a culture! Every country has a national identity, and culture is a part of that.

I agree with that and I am really glad they had a great time. I have a friend from Europe who might be coming out to visit in the summer - I'm hoping they will have a great time and go back with great memories. They had a friend who came out during the summer and he had a problem with the airport security and he went back "hating the US". Supposedly he now wears an American Flag sweatshirt though. But he did say he was never going to come back to America again. Supposedly there was nothign wrong with his trip - except for the amount of airport security.