Eol - hard done by?

[Durin1]

I have recently begun to re-read The Sil and have got as far as "Of Maeglin".

I try not to conform too much to general public opinion when looking at characters from Tolkien's works (preferring to look at them from different angles), and the case of Eol is no exception. I would like to know everyone else's opinions of him.

I am increasingly inclined to believe that Eol has been much maligned and doesn't really deserve to be recognised as such a bad character. Sure, he may have surreptitiously guided Aredhel to him and wedded her (though Tolkien does say that she was not wholly unwilling) and made her shun the sunlight, but there are other factors that should be taken into account. I would like to argue my case for his defence:

1. Eol was a kinsman of Thingol and would have had a natural love for the twilight years before the arising of the sun and moon.
2. He was a great smith and was the only one who really appreciated learning with the Dwarves.
3. Wouldn't you hate the Noldor if they had killed your own people?
4. Who woudn't get mad if he had found out that his son had betrayed him, with the encouragement of his own wife?
5. Wouldn't it be part of a person's natural emotions to chase after his family?
6. I believe that Turgon could have handled the situation better when Eol came to Gondolin. He own son didn't exactly race forward to help is father.
7. We are told that even Idril as unsure as to what to make of these events. It is stated that from then she couldn't trust Maeglin.

Any thoughts?

[Lefty Scaevola]

The attempted murder of his son, the mudrder of his wife, and the use of poison as a weapon, make him as being among the lowest scum of Elvendom. Anyone of theses would get you removed from elvsish society.

[Wayfarer]

Why? Who says?

Maeglin was later shown to be perhaps the most evil of all elves. He lusted after his cousin, he willingly served Morgoth in his attempt to claim her (Against her will!) and he destroyed the entire city of Gondolin in doing so. Better that Eol had slain him than that this should be allowed to happen.

Eol was not so evil. When Aradhel came into his woods, he used wizardry to draw her to his house, where he welcomed her and invited her in. She consented to stay as his wife.

While it is true that he placed limits on what she was allowed to do, it was for a good reason- safety. The same reason that the Elves of Gondolin stayed hidden inside their walls, in fact.

Maeglin, who became very interested in his mother's stories of home, and was no doubt extremely interested to learn that he was next in line for the kingship (after Turgon) seems to have a lot to do with her leaving. He betrayed his father, as he would later betray Gondolin.

Turgon, of course, was a fool, even as far as elven kings go. He deliberately disregarded the direct order of a Vala on at least one occassion. His refusal to allow Eol to go home was ridiculous.

As far as the use of a poisoned weapon...

...with stealth and ambush, with wizardry and venomed dart...

...so fought the elves of Nargothrond.

[Willow Oran]

Eol's not too bad when you compare him with Maeglin. But there are quite a few things he did that he and everyone else could have dealt with in better fashions. His treatment of Aredhel left much to be desired, perhaps if he had treated her better she wouldn't have left with Maeglin and things would have turned out better, or perhaps not. There are too many "what ifs?" in the tale to know anything for certain.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Why? Who says?

Maeglin was later shown to be perhaps the most evil of all elves. He lusted after his cousin, he willingly served Morgoth in his attempt to claim her (Against her will!) and he destroyed the entire city of Gondolin in doing so. Better that Eol had slain him than that this should be allowed to happen.

It was Eol's intention to slay him. Aradhel stepped in front of Maeglin and was struck by the spear.

Eol was not so evil. When Aradhel came into his woods, he used wizardry to draw her to his house, where he welcomed her and invited her in. She consented to stay as his wife.

True, after luring her there. She consented to be his wife, not to be his prisoner.

While it is true that he placed limits on what she was allowed to do, it was for a good reason- safety. The same reason that the Elves of Gondolin stayed hidden inside their walls, in fact.

I do not recall the text ever saying that he kept her secluded for reasons of safety. The text does say, however, that he did it to keep her from her kin.

Maeglin, who became very interested in his mother's stories of home, and was no doubt extremely interested to learn that he was next in line for the kingship (after Turgon) seems to have a lot to do with her leaving. He betrayed his father, as he would later betray Gondolin.

I disagree with this. although Maeglin was interested in the stories of his mother's kin, I think their leaving Nan-tathren was more due to Aradhel's restlessness, the same as she was restless after being in Gondolin for sometime, and went seeking the sons of Feanor.

Turgon, of course, was a fool, even as far as elven kings go. He deliberately disregarded the direct order of a Vala on at least one occassion. His refusal to allow Eol to go home was ridiculous.

This I also disagree with. Turgon had a strict policy that who ever made their way to the hidden city should remain there. He extended his hand in friendship to Eol, offering a place in his family and letting him dwell in Gondolin at his pleasure. Turgon could have had Eol wasted at the gates when he was first taken by the guards.

As for Turgon being foolish, that was not always the case, but when he disregarded the order of Ulmo, he had become prideful and still trusted in Gondolin's strength. Not the wisest choice, but understandable considering the course of events for the Noldor, especially after the Nirneth.

As far as the use of a poisoned weapon...
...so fought the elves of Nargothrond.

The Elves of Nargothrond did not handle their defensive policy in this manner when Finrod was king. It was not until his quest was revealed to Nargothrond's people and after he left, that they became this way. All that was due to the sons of Feanor conjuring an image of war and distruction in their minds.

[Wayfarer]

It was Eol's intention to slay him. Aradhel stepped in front of Maeglin and was struck by the spear.

That's what I mean. I think it's possible that Eol was using a bit of elvish foresight. He at least seems to realise what a dishonorable, tratorous creature his son has become (which is more than you can say for, say Finwe).

True, after luring her there. She consented to be his wife, not his prisoner

I do not recall the text ever saying that he kept her secluded for reasons of safety. The text does say, however, that he did it to keep her from her kin.

I got the strong impression that Eol himself stayed secluded, using magic to keep people away from his dwellings, and that he only required her to follow the same rules that he did.

This I also disagree with. Turgon had a strict policy that who ever made their way to the hidden city should remain there. He extended his hand in friendship to Eol, offering a place in his family and letting him dwell in Gondolin at his pleasure. Turgon could have had Eol wasted at the gates when he was first taken by the guards.

As for Turgon being foolish, that was not always the case, but when he disregarded the order of Ulmo, he had become prideful and still trusted in Gondolin's strength. Not the wisest choice, but understandable considering the course of events for the Noldor, especially after the Nirneth.

Turgon may not always have been foolish, but he made steadily worse decisions as the years progressed, in the same way that most of the other elven rulers did. The policy was foolish, and in light of the circumstances Eol's reaction was every bit as understandable as Turgon's, if not more so.

Then again, that's what makes it a tragedy, isn't it? Events, each leading to their logical conclusion, culminate in disaster. The entire war of the jewels is like that.

The Elves of Nargothrond did not handle their defensive policy in this manner when Finrod was king. It was not until his quest was revealed to Nargothrond's people and after he left, that they became this way. All that was due to the sons of Feanor conjuring an image of war and distruction in their minds.

This is true. However, that's not nescessary to consider in this case. I was only pointing out the massive error which Lefty made when he claimed that

"the use of poison as a weapon...make(s) him...among the lowest scum of Elvendom" and that "(using a poisoned weapon) would get you removed from elvish society."

Which, in the consideration of the elves of Nargothrond, is manifestly not true. They did forsake the bonds of kinship out of fear, and it is noted that they fell from valor and courage (which, I ought not need to point out, ultimately got them killed), there is never any indication that the use of poison was considered an evil act.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The use of poison being unelvish (a dirty Ork Trick) is discussed in HoME, presumably a latter idea not incorporated into the published Sil.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Which, in the consideration of the elves of Nargothrond, is manifestly not true. They did forsake the bonds of kinship out of fear, and it is noted that they fell from valor and courage (which, I ought not need to point out, ultimately got them killed), there is never any indication that the use of poison was considered an evil act.

True, but after word came to them of Finrod's fall, and Feanor's sons were banished from the realm, they returned to their ways of old, and they obeyed Orodreth. It wasn't until Turin came along that things changed. So, that is not what got them killed. What got them killed was Orodreth listening to Turin and them building a bridge across the Narog, and issueing forth to war, and then, not being able to destroy the bridge in time to prevent the enemy from accessing it. Building that bridge is what made them not a hidden kingdom any longer.

[Wayfarer]

The use of poison being unelvish (a dirty Ork Trick) is discussed in HoME, presumably a latter idea not incorporated into the published Sil.

Blame CJRT, then. That's what I do.

Granted that elves didn't use poison except in a few cases (and I think that's more owing to the fact that it didn't affect them much than any special nobility) but that doesn't mean it was considered a grave evil. After all, the elves made magical weapons which were possibly more potent than any (pitiful and pathetic piffle pip of a perilous ) poison could be.


Clarification: Valor and Courage (not Falling from the same) is what eventually brought about the downfall of Nargothrond. When they began going openly to war again, after listening to Turin, they showed plenty of both, but eventually their Machismo overcame their good sense.

[Earniel]

I don't think Eöl was more evil than say, Fëanor. He had his faults but I hardly think him evil.

He did have dealings with dwarves which may have made him a bit of an outcast since most Elves were a little unsure what to do with the little smiths. I believe I read somewhere that they even hunted the Petty Dwarves for a while.

In this case I think it speaks for Eöl that he was more able to see the true skills of the dwarves. That however doesn't give him a nice personality, but still.

Yet I don't think he can't have been that bad either, since Aradhel did consent to marry him so he must have had his good moments. The problem was that Aradhel just wasn't the staying-at-home-type and Eöl wasn't a guy with many social skills.

Oh Wayfarer, I've been meaning to ask: where does the poem in your signature come from?

[Lefty Scaevola]

It is a JRRT poem, I believe from the collection "Yhe Advetures of Tom Bombadil"

[Wayfarer]

Yes, it's a JRRT poem, the Mewlips. Can't say I care which collection it was published in, but it might have been that one.

[gollum9630]

Originally posted by Durin1
3. Wouldn't you hate the Noldor if they had killed your own people?

I am reading the Sil for the first time right now, and i do agree with that statement, but i think Eol contradicted his beliefs by wedding one of the Kin of the people who killed his kin.

[Lefty Scaevola]

JRRT was all over the place in the development of Eol, from Nandor, to Tatyarian Avari, to Sidar with some connection to Thingol.
At one point he is working on a long story about him being captured by Morgoths forces, learning his smith skill in slavey in Angband, being twisted and corrupted there, and then escaping or being allowed to escape.

[Attalus]

I certainly agree that Maeglin was by far the most evil of any Elf mentioned in the Sil, but don't think it necessary to go any easier on Eol, who seems to be the original "shady character." Wife-slayer, would-be filicide, seducer and father of the great traitor himself. I would also note parenthetically and tangentially that in Advanced Dungeons and Dragons the use of poison is a characteristic of Evil.

[Eärloth]

1. Eol was a kinsman of Thingol and would have had a natural love for the twilight years before the arising of the sun and moon.

You can love beauty but you could simultanously love violence; not saying that Eöl did such but relation to another person and love of twilight cannot excuse something as drastic as murder

2. He was a great smith and was the only one who really appreciated learning with the Dwarves.

That I really can't deny.

3. Wouldn't you hate the Noldor if they had killed your own people?

One word: forgiveness. And the actions of even a large horde of people doesn't generalise the malevolence or the evil as it were of the Noldor or their offspring.

4. Who woudn't get mad if he had found out that his son had betrayed him, with the encouragement of his own wife?

And what wife and son wouldn't resent their husband/father forbidding them to return to the land of their own people, let alone the kingdom of Aredhel's brother. He holds a grudge against his wife's people, does that justify wholly restricting her from contacting her brother and family?

5. Wouldn't it be part of a person's natural emotions to chase after his family?

Yeah, pretty much, but that wasn't an act of love, that was more an act of anger.

6. I believe that Turgon could have handled the situation better when Eol came to Gondolin. He own son didn't exactly race forward to help is father.

He granted him the chance to stay in Gondolin (the law of the White City being that if one finds the location they remain there), and would have granted him fair trial for his actions if not for the death of his sister.

7. We are told that even Idril as unsure as to what to make of these events. It is stated that from then she couldn't trust Maeglin.

I don't think anyone could, he was a little sh*t. He didn't protest to the murder of his own father, but that's his lot, not Eöl's. Eöl let a grudge and his want for control get the better of him. Although I don't agree with the death penalty in any case, including murder, and I don't think he should have been cast off the precipiece.