Arnor or Gondor?

Maedhros · 07-03-2003, 05:56 PM

From The Lord of the Rings: The Council of Elrond

Quote:

'But my home, such as I have, is in the North. For here the heirs of Valandil have ever dwelt in long line unbroken from father unto son for many generations. Our days have darkened, and we have dwindled; but ever the Sword has passed to a new keeper. And this I will say to you, Boromir, ere I end. Lonely men are we, Rangers of the wild, hunters--but hunters ever of the servants of the Enemy; for they are found in many places, not in Mordor only.

The question is:
Which contributions to the defeat of Sauron in the TA is greater? Those of the Arnor and it's descendants or those of Gondor's?

Lefty Scaevola · 07-04-2003, 11:05 AM

It is had to caculate 'greater' when the contribution had many diiferent types, and both sets were indispensible. Gondor certainly spent many times more men and treasure against Suaron, maily because Arnor collapse part way through the third age, and always had less population to work with.

Laurus Nobilis · 07-04-2003, 11:17 AM

I think that's tough to answer. Both Arnor and Gondor were indispensable, as Lefty said.

Gondor stopped Sauron in the South, but if the Rangers hadn't been protecting Bree and the Shire, the Black Riders would've probably got the Ring. And their arrival at the Pelennor Fields was a great element of surprise.

Both contributions were necessary, IMHO.

Lalaith · 07-05-2003, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Laurus Nobilis
Both contributions were necessary, IMHO.

Ya, I think that way too.
We shouldn't speak of greater or more necessary or more important. Both were important in some way. Without one the other would have made no sense and the other way round.

***Jonathan*** · 07-05-2003, 06:37 AM

Arnor and Gondor both served as 'barriers'. Gondor protected Middle-Earth from Mordor and Arnor fought Angmar. Of course the forces of Arnor and Angmar battled a long time before the Ring fell into Frodo's hands, but I guess if it hadn't been for Arnors deeds in the past, Sauron would've been able to conquer most of Middle-Earth a long time ago.

LutraMage · 07-05-2003, 07:40 AM

Difficult one this. I agree with Jonathan that at different times in history both Arnor and Gondor were important in the battle. But in the end, Arnor failed, at least as a major Power, and only the remnants of its leadership seem to have survived.

On that level, it becomes difficult to say that Arnor could have been greater than Gondor. Remember, Gondor also fought against Sauron in the South all the time that Arnor was fighting in the north, but then went on as the main 'Bulwark of the West' throughout the Third Age long after Arnor had crumbled.

Also, although the Dunadan clearly played a vital part in rooting out any evil forces that managed to get by Gondor, if Gondor had failed the remnants of the forces of Arnor would never have been able to keep back the hords of Mordor.

For those reasons, I would argue that, overall, Gondor was the greater of the two.

Húrin Thalion · 07-10-2003, 05:13 AM

My theory is what might seem, but is not necessarily, quite obvious, that Gondor played a larger part in the victory, in the end. This is because that even if victory had been made impossible if the Nazgûl had captured the Ring, it was not effectuated by Strider's protection of Frodo. Moreover, fi there ahd been no Aragorn, then Gandalf would have taken Frodo with him since he in the actaul case trusted in that they would meet, no in that way Arnor was not achieving victory. If we take a look at Gondor's accomplishments in the war of the Ring, they are far greater. We all know that a military victory was impossible, but to what gain would Frodo have destroyed the Ring if there had been no Gondor? Since the world would already have been ravaged, pretty little. I think that the valour of the Gondorian people saved western Middle Earth from destruction.

Húrin Thalion... BTW, if any TTF people are here, yea sure, it's me, but be not troubled, I don't think I'll be running haywire here!

Och tjenare Jonathan, Stockholmare är vi båda två!

Snowdog · 07-22-2003, 11:40 AM

I think they both played major roles, though Gondor was the bulwark that held Mordor at bay from most of the west, so too did Arnor even though they were worn down by the Witch King and illness. Even so there were some who held vigilence against the forces of Sauron.

07-04-2003, 11:05 AM	#2
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	It is had to caculate 'greater' when the contribution had many diiferent types, and both sets were indispensible. Gondor certainly spent many times more men and treasure against Suaron, maily because Arnor collapse part way through the third age, and always had less population to work with. __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"

07-04-2003, 11:17 AM	#3
Laurus Nobilis Enting Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Posts: 73	I think that's tough to answer. Both Arnor and Gondor were indispensable, as Lefty said. Gondor stopped Sauron in the South, but if the Rangers hadn't been protecting Bree and the Shire, the Black Riders would've probably got the Ring. And their arrival at the Pelennor Fields was a great element of surprise. Both contributions were necessary, IMHO. __________________ "...So the essential Quest started at once. But I met a lot of things on the way that astonished me. Tom Bombadil I knew already; but I had never been to Bree. Strider sitting in the corner at the inn was a shock, and I had no more idea who he was than had Frodo. The Mines of Moria had been a mere name; and of Lothlórien no word had reached my mortal ears till I came there. Far away I knew there were the Horse-lords on the confines of an ancient Kingdom of Men, but Fangorn Forest was an unforeseen adventure." ~ J. R. R. Tolkien

07-05-2003, 06:37 AM	#5
*Jonathan* Entmoot Attorney-General, Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 3,891	Arnor and Gondor both served as 'barriers'. Gondor protected Middle-Earth from Mordor and Arnor fought Angmar. Of course the forces of Arnor and Angmar battled a long time before the Ring fell into Frodo's hands, but I guess if it hadn't been for Arnors deeds in the past, Sauron would've been able to conquer most of Middle-Earth a long time ago. __________________ An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻

07-22-2003, 11:40 AM	#8
Snowdog Dúnedain Ranger of the North Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Ruins of Arnor Posts: 892	I think they both played major roles, though Gondor was the bulwark that held Mordor at bay from most of the west, so too did Arnor even though they were worn down by the Witch King and illness. Even so there were some who held vigilence against the forces of Sauron. __________________ "I am an outlaw, I was born an outlaw's son. The highway is my legacy, on the highway I will run." Last edited by Snowdog : 07-29-2003 at 03:10 PM.

07-05-2003, 07:40 AM	#6
LutraMage Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Tolkien's England where the tale grew in the telling... Posts: 330	Difficult one this. I agree with Jonathan that at different times in history both Arnor and Gondor were important in the battle. But in the end, Arnor failed, at least as a major Power, and only the remnants of its leadership seem to have survived. On that level, it becomes difficult to say that Arnor could have been greater than Gondor. Remember, Gondor also fought against Sauron in the South all the time that Arnor was fighting in the north, but then went on as the main 'Bulwark of the West' throughout the Third Age long after Arnor had crumbled. Also, although the Dunadan clearly played a vital part in rooting out any evil forces that managed to get by Gondor, if Gondor had failed the remnants of the forces of Arnor would never have been able to keep back the hords of Mordor. For those reasons, I would argue that, overall, Gondor was the greater of the two.

07-10-2003, 05:13 AM	#7
Húrin Thalion Sapling Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Stockholm Posts: 3	My theory is what might seem, but is not necessarily, quite obvious, that Gondor played a larger part in the victory, in the end. This is because that even if victory had been made impossible if the Nazgûl had captured the Ring, it was not effectuated by Strider's protection of Frodo. Moreover, fi there ahd been no Aragorn, then Gandalf would have taken Frodo with him since he in the actaul case trusted in that they would meet, no in that way Arnor was not achieving victory. If we take a look at Gondor's accomplishments in the war of the Ring, they are far greater. We all know that a military victory was impossible, but to what gain would Frodo have destroyed the Ring if there had been no Gondor? Since the world would already have been ravaged, pretty little. I think that the valour of the Gondorian people saved western Middle Earth from destruction. Húrin Thalion... BTW, if any TTF people are here, yea sure, it's me, but be not troubled, I don't think I'll be running haywire here! Och tjenare Jonathan, Stockholmare är vi båda två!