The Valar and...

Ithilwin · 05-04-2003, 08:44 AM

After thinking about it,I noted that the Valar have many similarities with the Greek gods;Manwe and Varda are their king and queen,as Zeus and Hera are for the Greek gods;Ulmo loved the sea,as Poseidon;Mandos and Lorien were the spirits of death and dreams and were brethren,like Death and Sleep in greek mythology;and Tulkas is something like Ares

I don't know if this is supposed to be here.I thought it would fit best here,if it's not close it

Lalaith_Elf · 05-04-2003, 08:54 AM

hey... never thought of that

Ithy my old pal... *hugs* i haven't seen you for such a long time....

Ragnarok · 05-04-2003, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ithilwin
After thinking about it,I noted that the Valar have many similarities with the Greek gods;Manwe and Varda are their king and queen,as Zeus and Hera are for the Greek gods;Ulmo loved the sea,as Poseidon;Mandos and Lorien were the spirits of death and dreams and were brethren,like Death and Sleep in greek mythology;and Tulkas is something like Ares

I don't know if this is supposed to be here.I thought it would fit best here,if it's not close it

I read somewhere that the 12 Valar and the Halls of Mandos are similar in concept to Norse Mythology..? I'm pretty sure there are 12 gods and a hall of the dead in Norse Mythology but I'm not 100% sure.

***azalea*** · 05-04-2003, 01:48 PM

I noticed the same thing when I read The Valaquenta, and I even tried to do a correspondence chart, but I never was able to make one that was completely satisfactory. There was a discussion where this idea was mentioned (perhaps the Valaquenta discussion?), and I think the Norse idea is more accurate. But still, it is fun to think about. I always enjoyed Greek mythology. I had Tulkas as Ares, too, Ithilwin.

Attalus · 05-04-2003, 03:05 PM

I think of Tulkas as Thor, but Odin the Goth, Glutter of the Slain doesn't really correspond with Manwe, does he? He is more like Zeus, but more like the Archangel Michael. Ulmo is strikingly like Poiseidon, to me, and Aule is like unto Hesphaitos. Yavanna is Demeter or Persephone, not Hera. Orome I cannot place in either mythos, except as a male Artemis. There is no Apollo, thank Iluvater, or Aphrodite, that I can see.

Ithilwin · 05-04-2003, 03:05 PM

well,whoever the Valar are associate with,they really look alike the Greek gods

Maedhros · 05-04-2003, 05:37 PM

Quote:

After thinking about it,I noted that the Valar have many similarities with the Greek gods;Manwe and Varda are their king and queen,as Zeus and Hera are for the Greek gods;Ulmo loved the sea,as Poseidon;Mandos and Lorien were the spirits of death and dreams and were brethren,like Death and Sleep in greek mythology;and Tulkas is something like Ares

Depends on the God.
Manwë as Zeus would be unnacpetable. The Noble Manwë compared to one such as Zeus, no. The same as Varda to Hera.
The principal difference between the Valar and the Greek Gods is the qualities that they share. The Valar are noble gods if you like while their greek counterparts seem very petty compared to them.
Although I like the comparison between Námo and Irmo to Thanatos (god of death) and Hypnos (god of sleep).
Ulmo to Poseidon is also very good. Tulkas as Ares, no. Their powers are not on the same scale, while Tulkas could beat Melkor, Ares could not even beat his sister Athena.

***Earniel*** · 05-05-2003, 02:40 PM

Manwë and Varda like Zeus and Hera? *laughs*

Oh no definately not. The only thing they have in common is the fact that they are the rulers among the gods. Zeus unnumerable escapades is totally nothing like Manwë (unless Tolkien left out some interesting things about him

) and Hera's jealousy doesn't fit Varda.

Ulmo does fit Poseidon and Neptunus. But I think that comes mostly from the fact that they are all 'gods' of the sea and that they're are only so many ways to depict them.

markedel · 05-05-2003, 03:18 PM

the valr are not as man-like as the greek gods-they serve different purposes. But I can't imagine there are no similarities, it's fairly hard to create a mythology without borrowing from the past. All mythologies do it, no less then Tolkien did.

Anglorfin · 05-06-2003, 09:31 PM

To me Tulkas has always been a "Thor".

Vairë, the spouse of Mandos and the weaver of the cloths has always reminded me of the three Fates from Greek mythology. They also wove huge tapestries out of threads. The only difference is that it was their choice to say who died and who lived.

I think all the other ones were mentioned. Ulmo is an obvious Poseidon. I am not sure if any of the other Valar fit as well as that. Maybe you can compare Melkor or Sauron to "Loki", the Norse trickster god. Saruman might also apply to that.

edit/ I can also see Oromë as being "Heimdal", the Norse god who stands guard at Bifrost the rainbow bridge. Heimdal had a great horn that would sound at the beginning of Ragnarok, or the Last Battle. Much akin to Tolkien's Dagor Dagorlad.

And also if a parallel were to be made between the Halls of Mandos and any other mythos, Valhalla comes to my mind. It is the place in Norse mythology where dead warriors to go to await the coming of Ragnarok where they will fight on the side of the gods against the giants.

Shadowfax · 05-06-2003, 10:41 PM

Tolkien got the majority of his ideas from Norse mythology, not Greek, so I don't really see how one could compare the Valar to Greek gods.

Gwaimir Windgem · 05-06-2003, 11:38 PM

I agree, more Norse than Greek. I see Tulkas as more Thor-ic than Aresian; though of course, none of them are the same.

Ithilwin · 05-08-2003, 08:05 AM

I never said Tolkien was inspired of Greek mythology to create the Valar,I just noted that there are some similarities between them.They can't be compared

Maedhros · 05-08-2003, 09:50 AM

You might find a more striking resemblance between the characters of Túrin Turambar and Oedipus.

Linaewen · 05-08-2003, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Maedhros
You might find a more striking resemblance between the characters of Túrin Turambar and Oedipus.

Oh, yeah. I forgot that. Good link. Poor Turin and Oedipus. (Though I think Oedipus' story is a bit worse)

***azalea*** · 05-12-2003, 02:38 PM

I just found the old piece of paper where I wrote down for fun which Vala would correspond roughly to which Greek god. Of course as everyone said, there can be no true comparison because of the drastic personality differences between the Valar vs. the Greek gods, but it was just a fun exercise. Of all mythology, I am most familiar with Greek, which is why I happened to go with that. I couldn't think of one that would correspond to Melkor, but I suppose you could say that he embodied in one entity what each Greek god had a little of in his or her personality (as in, if Melkor were spread out among the Valar, you'd have the Greek gods. Just a funny thought.

). Also, when I thought of these, I was thinking more in terms of the "realm" of each rather than the personality or who they were married to.

Varda = Hera
Manwe = Zeus
Ulmo = Poseidon
Aule = Hephaestus (sp)
Yavanna = Demeter
Mandos = Thanatos
Vaire = Nemesis ? (Goddess of destiny)
Lorien = Morpheus (god of dreams)
Este = Asclepius (god of healing)
Nienna = couldn't think of one, but I'm sure there is something that corresponds.
Tulkas = Ares (not satisfactory, but in terms of their area of interest -- fighting -- they are similar in a general way)
Nessa = Hermes
Orome = Athena
Vana = Adonis

Strongbow · 05-15-2003, 01:29 PM

I dont think that it would fit well with any mythology other than Norse. I will sit down tonight and try to chart it out for us : )

05-04-2003, 08:44 AM	#1
Ithilwin Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Imladris Posts: 332	The Valar and... After thinking about it,I noted that the Valar have many similarities with the Greek gods;Manwe and Varda are their king and queen,as Zeus and Hera are for the Greek gods;Ulmo loved the sea,as Poseidon;Mandos and Lorien were the spirits of death and dreams and were brethren,like Death and Sleep in greek mythology;and Tulkas is something like Ares I don't know if this is supposed to be here.I thought it would fit best here,if it's not close it __________________ ~[color=sky blue]*[/color]~ ...White was her garment and it had no ornament, save a silver girdle, but above her brow her forehead was adorned with a slender silver lace, and small gems were on it, glittering white, yet her hair was dark as the evening and her eyes were bright as the starlit heaven; queenly she looked and she shone as a white star in the sunlight.

05-04-2003, 08:54 AM	#2
Lalaith_Elf Her Infernal Majesty Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,188	hey... never thought of that Ithy my old pal... hugs i haven't seen you for such a long time.... __________________ "It is a good viewpoint to see the world as a dream. When you have something like a nightmare, you will wake up and tell yourself that it was only a dream. It is said that the world we live in is not a bit different from this." - Yamamoto Tsunetomo

05-04-2003, 03:05 PM	#5
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	I think of Tulkas as Thor, but Odin the Goth, Glutter of the Slain doesn't really correspond with Manwe, does he? He is more like Zeus, but more like the Archangel Michael. Ulmo is strikingly like Poiseidon, to me, and Aule is like unto Hesphaitos. Yavanna is Demeter or Persephone, not Hera. Orome I cannot place in either mythos, except as a male Artemis. There is no Apollo, thank Iluvater, or Aphrodite, that I can see. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

05-04-2003, 03:05 PM	#6
Ithilwin Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Imladris Posts: 332	well,whoever the Valar are associate with,they really look alike the Greek gods __________________ ~[color=sky blue]*[/color]~ ...White was her garment and it had no ornament, save a silver girdle, but above her brow her forehead was adorned with a slender silver lace, and small gems were on it, glittering white, yet her hair was dark as the evening and her eyes were bright as the starlit heaven; queenly she looked and she shone as a white star in the sunlight.

05-05-2003, 02:40 PM	#8
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Manwë and Varda like Zeus and Hera? laughs Oh no definately not. The only thing they have in common is the fact that they are the rulers among the gods. Zeus unnumerable escapades is totally nothing like Manwë (unless Tolkien left out some interesting things about him ) and Hera's jealousy doesn't fit Varda. Ulmo does fit Poseidon and Neptunus. But I think that comes mostly from the fact that they are all 'gods' of the sea and that they're are only so many ways to depict them. __________________ We are not things.

05-04-2003, 01:48 PM	#4
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	I noticed the same thing when I read The Valaquenta, and I even tried to do a correspondence chart, but I never was able to make one that was completely satisfactory. There was a discussion where this idea was mentioned (perhaps the Valaquenta discussion?), and I think the Norse idea is more accurate. But still, it is fun to think about. I always enjoyed Greek mythology. I had Tulkas as Ares, too, Ithilwin.

05-05-2003, 03:18 PM	#9
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	the valr are not as man-like as the greek gods-they serve different purposes. But I can't imagine there are no similarities, it's fairly hard to create a mythology without borrowing from the past. All mythologies do it, no less then Tolkien did. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

05-06-2003, 09:31 PM	#10
Anglorfin Alasailon Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: college Posts: 861	To me Tulkas has always been a "Thor". Vairë, the spouse of Mandos and the weaver of the cloths has always reminded me of the three Fates from Greek mythology. They also wove huge tapestries out of threads. The only difference is that it was their choice to say who died and who lived. I think all the other ones were mentioned. Ulmo is an obvious Poseidon. I am not sure if any of the other Valar fit as well as that. Maybe you can compare Melkor or Sauron to "Loki", the Norse trickster god. Saruman might also apply to that. edit/ I can also see Oromë as being "Heimdal", the Norse god who stands guard at Bifrost the rainbow bridge. Heimdal had a great horn that would sound at the beginning of Ragnarok, or the Last Battle. Much akin to Tolkien's Dagor Dagorlad. And also if a parallel were to be made between the Halls of Mandos and any other mythos, Valhalla comes to my mind. It is the place in Norse mythology where dead warriors to go to await the coming of Ragnarok where they will fight on the side of the gods against the giants. __________________ "and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill." Last edited by Anglorfin : 05-06-2003 at 09:37 PM.

05-06-2003, 10:41 PM	#11
Shadowfax The Fleet-Footed Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: British Columbia Posts: 913	Tolkien got the majority of his ideas from Norse mythology, not Greek, so I don't really see how one could compare the Valar to Greek gods. __________________ Jesus saved me "To remain ignorant of things that happened before you were born is to remain a child" (Cicero, 106-43 B.C.) "Art is a lie which makes us realize the truth" (Picasso)

05-06-2003, 11:38 PM	#12
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	I agree, more Norse than Greek. I see Tulkas as more Thor-ic than Aresian; though of course, none of them are the same. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

05-08-2003, 08:05 AM	#13
Ithilwin Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Imladris Posts: 332	I never said Tolkien was inspired of Greek mythology to create the Valar,I just noted that there are some similarities between them.They can't be compared __________________ ~[color=sky blue]*[/color]~ ...White was her garment and it had no ornament, save a silver girdle, but above her brow her forehead was adorned with a slender silver lace, and small gems were on it, glittering white, yet her hair was dark as the evening and her eyes were bright as the starlit heaven; queenly she looked and she shone as a white star in the sunlight.

05-08-2003, 09:50 AM	#14
Maedhros The Tall Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Formenos Posts: 578	You might find a more striking resemblance between the characters of Túrin Turambar and Oedipus. __________________ “What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.

05-12-2003, 02:38 PM	#16
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	I just found the old piece of paper where I wrote down for fun which Vala would correspond roughly to which Greek god. Of course as everyone said, there can be no true comparison because of the drastic personality differences between the Valar vs. the Greek gods, but it was just a fun exercise. Of all mythology, I am most familiar with Greek, which is why I happened to go with that. I couldn't think of one that would correspond to Melkor, but I suppose you could say that he embodied in one entity what each Greek god had a little of in his or her personality (as in, if Melkor were spread out among the Valar, you'd have the Greek gods. Just a funny thought. ). Also, when I thought of these, I was thinking more in terms of the "realm" of each rather than the personality or who they were married to. Varda = Hera Manwe = Zeus Ulmo = Poseidon Aule = Hephaestus (sp) Yavanna = Demeter Mandos = Thanatos Vaire = Nemesis ? (Goddess of destiny) Lorien = Morpheus (god of dreams) Este = Asclepius (god of healing) Nienna = couldn't think of one, but I'm sure there is something that corresponds. Tulkas = Ares (not satisfactory, but in terms of their area of interest -- fighting -- they are similar in a general way) Nessa = Hermes Orome = Athena Vana = Adonis

05-15-2003, 01:29 PM	#17
Strongbow Hobbit Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: New Jersey Posts: 36	I dont think that it would fit well with any mythology other than Norse. I will sit down tonight and try to chart it out for us : ) __________________ =========== "And with a bit of luck... This mans life was ruined..." ~ Duke Raul ===========

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