Crossing the Helcaraxe

[Gwaimir Windgem]

That's my guess too.

[Sister Golden Hair]

AE and GW, didn't your moms ever tell you that it's not polite to correct your Elders? It's been a long day.

[Ruinel]

I know that Elves can starve to death because in "Of Tuor And His Coming To Gondolin" in UT, Voronwë's comrads drowned at sea (he was the only survivor of the ship). Then when he and Tuor are making their way to Gondolin there are several references to death.

...said Voronwë, "Have I escaped the mouths of the sea but to lie under the snow?"

When Tuor tells Voronwë that he isn't sure if he'll survive the fell weather and hunger, Voronwë replies...

"No other choice have we," said Voronwë, "Unless it be to lay us down here and seek the snow-sleep."

So, as far as the cold of the Helkaraxë, the Elves could succumb to it and perish. Especially if the trip took so long.

Elves do not feel hunger like Men, but eventually, it would seem they would also be vulnerable to hunger and thus die. It would just take longer. I would think that the Elves brought some food for the trip, but eventually they had to seek other nurishment. Fish would be available but only seasonally... not sure if they would eat sea mamals. But then this could be why some died along the way.

I would imagine that if I wanted to hang Maedhros from a wall by his right wrist for as long as it pleased me (as Melkor did), I would want to keep him alive as long as I could. If that meant feeding him and giving him water, then I would do it. There's nothing in the book that says either way.

[Artanis]

You got a convincing case, Ruinel.

Fish would be available but only seasonally... not sure if they would eat sea mamals.

Why wouldn't they eat sea mammals?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
Why wouldn't they eat sea mammals?

I'm under the impression that the Elves were vegetarians. However, I would think that in a desperate situation (starve to death or eat a seal) that they would be smart enough to take the life of a friendly beast.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I do not believe that the Noldor were vegetarians.

[Attalus]

I don't think the Noldor were vegetarians, either, but I think Tom Bombadil and Goldberry were.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I do not believe that the Noldor were vegetarians.

Yes, they hunted didn't they. That makes sense, then. I mean, surely they were not hunting broccoli. So, then they would have eaten whatever there was available, be it fish or sea mammal.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yes.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

If Elves could succumb to hunger then why was Maedhros able to hang for 20 odd years (WoTJ; HoME 11) from Thangorodrim? I presume he wasn't fed. Or was it because he had just arrived from Aman?

[Falagar]

His mum probably sent with him a lunch-box before he left

Seriously though, I've been wondering on the same thing...

[Sween]

Originally posted by Falagar
His mum probably sent with him a lunch-box before he left

Seriously though, I've been wondering on the same thing...

do you really think morgoth wanted his captive dead he would get a lot more plesure from they having a long (in case of elves neverending) life of torment if fingon had not come to save mederhos he would of been there to see the final destruction of morgoth

[Sister Golden Hair]

It says in the Sil I believe that seldom were the Elves killed that Morgoth captured. So If that is the case, I would say that he fed them. I don't even want to think of what he fed them. Ew!

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
It says in the Sil I believe that seldom were the Elves killed that Morgoth captured. So If that is the case, I would say that he fed them. I don't even want to think of what he fed them. Ew!

Orcs that didn't meet Melkor's standards.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Most elves that were captured were either enslaved by Morgoth so that they would work in his forges (making swords etc, of which the Noldor were especially skilled) Gwindor being an example of a enslaved Noldor.

Others were 'daunted' by Morgoth's eyes and 'did his bidding' wandering across Beleriand in a trance of sorts, though this is a lot more common in the Lost Tales legenedarium, though as we can see from 'Quendi and Eldar' (HoME 11) this idea still existed:

No Elf of any kind ever sided with Morgoth of free will, though under torture or stress of great fear, or deluded by lies, they might obey his commands...

This once applied to the 'Northern Sindar' ( i.e the ones under the Finarfians in Dorthonion or Tol-Sirion, or the Feanorians in Eastern Beleriand) who were said to be under the rule of Morgoth and thus Beren's use of Northern Sindarin dialect when speaking to Thingol, would've further insulted Thingol, who despised his Northern kinsmen, though this was evidently just a ephermal idea.

It problably would've been in Morgoth's better intrests to keep the miserable Noldor alive then allow for them to 'escape' to Namo in Mandos with the eventuality of re-incarnation.

[Ruinel]

Good point, Inderjit Sanghera! If you have captives why let them be released in death only to return reborn and fight you again? After all, you took the trouble to capture them in the first place, make it worth your while. Make them work for you. Or, better yet, torture them by hanging them on a wall for 20+ years by their wrist. And with all of this, you have to feed them so they don't starve to death. Because surely, eventually, they would need fuel to sustain their life.

[Ninquelote]

Originally posted by Sparky
I thought there were only 2 ways an elf could die-by weapon or from grief. This confuses me because I recall reading in the Sil that Turgon's wife (don't remember the name) died during the march across the Helcaraxe. How did this happen if elves can only die by weapons or grief?

She could have fallen into the icy water. I believe by 'weapons' they mean by any inflicted wound. I think hypothermia would count. Or maybe she was crushed by moving ice.

[Tar-Elenion]

In the Shibboleth of Fëanor JRRT writes of Elenwë:
"She perished in the crossing of the Ice; and Turgon was thereafter unappeasable in his enmity for Fëanor and his sons. He had himself come near to death in the bitter waters when he attempted to save her and his daughter Itaril, whom the breaking of treacherous ice had cast into the cruel sea. Itaril he saved; but the body of Elenwë was covered in fallen ice."

Elves are effected by lack of food and water, witness Beleg after being captured by Túrin's outlaw band:
"Then at the egging of Andróg they left Beleg tied to the tree without food or water, and they sat near eating and drinking; but he said no more to them. When two days and nights had passed in this way they became angry and fearful, and were eager to be gone; and most were now ready to slay the Elf. As night drew down they were all gathered about him, and Ulrad brought a brand from the little fire that was lit in the cave mouth. But at that moment Túrin returned. Coming silently, as was his custom, he stood in the shadows beyond the ring of men, and he saw the haggard face of Beleg in the light of the brand.
Then he was stricken as with a shaft, and as if at the sudden melting of a frost tears long unshed filled his eyes. He sprang out and ran to the tree. "Beleg! Beleg!" he cried. "How have you come hither? And why do you stand so?" At once he cat the bonds from his friend, and Beleg fell forward into his arms."
UT, Narn I Hin...

[Sparky]

Thanx for clearing it up about the ways elves can die. I understand better now.