The Critics' treatment of Tolkien & Jackson

[Nurvingiel]

I think that Eomer's men had a lot more orcs to kill than that, but it's entirely possible. Lets say that Helm's Deep, being a fortess built to withstand a long seige, has stacks and stacks of arrows. Elven archers are awesome, and can fire off tons of arrows in a night. Also, the Rohirrim aren't bad archers by any means.

Let's say the defenders averaged out at killing 15 orcs each. (You'll have some people like Legolas and Gimli who took out 41 and 42 respectively, and others like Hama's son who might not kill as many.)

300 people would kill 4500 orcs. That leaves about 5500 for Eomers 2000 to take care of. Tough odds, but Eomer has four advantages.
1) Fresher troops
2) Higher ground
3) Braver and more skilled troops
4) Surprise

As was pointed out before, orcs aren't really the sort to bravely stand their ground when the tide of battle has turned against them.

[Black Breathalizer]

To add a point to Nurvingiel's dead-on commentary:

Not only did Eomer's troops have the element of surprise, they also had the advantage of the rising sun.

Even though Saruman's orcs were bred to travel by daylight, it isn't hard to imagine that they still loathed the sun and had eyes that would have trouble adjusting to intense sunlight.

So the combination of a surprise counter-attack AND the bright, rising sun shining directly in their faces from the direction of their new foes would have been too much for most of them. Whether the number of orcs was 2000 or 5000, it's easy to understand given their character and the situation why they would turn tail and run.

[Nurvingiel]

Thanks BB! And now, since it scary for us to agree for an entire thread... (Just kidding!)

You mentioned the rising sun, and someone said that Gandalf said, "Look for me in the West, ere the sun rises on the fifth day," or something to that effect.

I always thought he said, "Look for me when the sun rises," which also sounds good. Because if he didn't say "West" then no problem, but if he did, then there's confusion.

[Black Breathalizer]

Gandalf's actual quote was:

Look to my coming at first light on the fifth day. At dawn, look to the East.

[Cirdan]

Upon the east too sheer and stony was the valley's side; upon the left, from the west, their final doom approached.

There suddenly upon a ridge appeared a rider, clad in white, shining in the rising sun.

34 times, eh?

[Nurvingiel]

Thanks BB, that clears it all up. Except Cirdan, you've gone ahead and confused me again. What's in the East and what's 34 times?

[Cirdan]

Gandalf's quote means he will arrive at sunrise. What was meant was look to the east for the sunrise, for that is [i[when[/i] he will arrive. The charge by Erkenbrand, Gandalf & Co. comes from the west. The east wall of the coomb is impassable.

[Nurvingiel]

Thanks Cirdan! That totally makes sense now! I never did have the best sense of direction.

Now everything is happy jolly.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Cirdan
Gandalf's quote means he will arrive at sunrise. What was meant was look to the east for the sunrise, for that is when he will arrive. The charge by Erkenbrand, Gandalf & Co. comes from the west. The east wall of the coomb is impassable.

Cirdan has pointed out yet another improvement Jackson made in adapting the story for the movie. Having Gandalf and company charge down the steep eastern slope rather than come in from the west was a stroke of genius.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Impassable.

Impossible to pass, cross, or overcome

Incapable of being passed; not admitting a passage

Impossible to pass

All three definitions from dictionary.com. My emphasis added, of course.

[mithrand1r]

Gwaimir Windgem,

Very Funny.

I am sure BB meant to say something else (like the Western slope).

I think I am begining to understand another reason why some people had problems with the charge of Gandalf, Eomer & company. [It does not make sense with the Geography of ME and/or a Sun that rises in the East] I never thought much about the rising sun at all.

Sincerely,
Anthony

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Cirdan has pointed out yet another improvement Jackson made in adapting the story for the movie. Having Gandalf and company charge down the steep eastern slope rather than come in from the west was a stroke of genius.

Not that this is a flaw in the book, it's just a misinterpretation from some readers (including myself, until it was explained.) Now I'm even more confused. But I liked the scene.